Welcome to Resilience Gone Wild. We just had the most awesome conversation with Andy DeHart from Loggerhead Marine Life Center around sea turtles and not making mistakes because we learned from them and we had this special bond between Andy and Kai that he's gonna share. Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, 1st, congrats, Jessica. You got here. It's our inaugural interview episode. You and I have been working our butts off for, I think, like, 6 months getting all this information together and Such fun, by the way. Yeah. And, you know, all that hard work upfront allows us just to have fun at these interviews. Right? And that's exactly what it was. So, again, I had my wrap it up ready to go, but I couldn't drop it till, like, 45 minutes in. So but I I think this is another example of, like, oh, hey. Here's my friend, Andy. You keep it so casual, and then you start reading his resume. I'm not gonna spoil it, but Andy is about as deep and as passionate and is about as relevant in this world, I think, as someone can get including mentions in USA Today, the Discovery Channel, the aquariums he's worked on, which through the interview discovered that he worked at the Omaha Henry Doorly Zoo. I'm from Nebraska, and I fell in love with aquatic life walking through that aquarium. And to know that I probably saw Andy scuba diving with a tiger shark Oh my god. That's right. As a 8 or 9 year old walking through there just Oh my god. There's a guy in the tank with that big shark. Well and and as we'll see, he has this beautiful story about this tiger shark that he got there, and it's like, it's very cool. And, again, congratulations. And, yeah, what other emotions are you feeling right now before we get to the interview? I'm just on such a high, like it's so much fun to have these conversations with people who are so passionate and also so inspiring and have brilliant important things to say about both the world of nature they live in and what they've learned about becoming more resilient themselves from witnessing the world of nature, so yeah. Yeah, and I think for me, a reminder that the doom and gloom is there, but there is a message of hope, and Andy really did bring that. And our effort to be involved can have an impact, and you'll hear a story about how they're literally applying antibiotic paste to to coral reef, I believe, to help stop what's happening as they discover what is happening. And it's like the effort that it just takes for people and volunteers is just so huge. So You can just feel the love. You can feel the passion. You can feel the love. It's beautiful. The love. It's yeah. It's a very beautiful thing. And, yeah, from Alaska to Florida, you're gonna hear it all, but so we won't we won't spoil anymore. And should we get to the interview? Awesome. Looking forward to it. Alright. Enjoy, everybody. Welcome, Angie, to Resilience Gone Wild. I am so excited to be here chatting with you about ocean conservation, sea turtles, and our resilience lesson about throwing out the idea of making mistakes and instead owning our decisions and learning from them. So, welcome, Andy, and we would love to hear more from you about your work and your passions and whatever else you'd like to share. Thanks for having me, Jessica. It's always nice to talk to you whether it be, this way or on campus. You know, obviously, for me, I've had a as you could tell by my over enlarged bio, it's, I've had a pretty crazy roots to where I'm at right now. Going from shark biologist to turtle, hospital CEO has been a wild journey. Those two things don't always play nice together, but it's It's such a funny thing. I think resilience is certainly part of that. And, I do think, you know, that this podcast is right in line with something that's very true, is that the nature is resilient, that human beings can be resilient, and I think we can look to nature to find those lessons. Awesome. Yeah. You brought up something I hadn't thought of that, which is funny that sharks are pretty much, the only major consumer of large sea turtles. I mean, the babies are at risk all the time, but, yeah, that's such an interesting interesting complex contrast. Yeah, it's actually even more unique. And the fact that probably my number one specialty is with tiger sharks, which is the one species of shark that is known to feed on sea turtles regularly. They've adapted and adapted really unique strategies for how to feed on sea turtles, including their teeth shape, you know, how they hunt, and even how they get rid of sea turtle shells at the end of the process. Wow, I haven't heard of that one. Can you share that? Because that's the one piece I haven't heard. Yeah. Sure. Yes. You know, obviously, as you might imagine, if you feed on sea turtles getting rid of the shells, not a not a fun part. So Yeah. I mean, just to tell people like sea turtles can be 3, 4, £500 in the yeah. So Yeah. So they actually have an adaptive strategy Tiger sharks do where they can evert their stomach, out their mouth and do the hokey pokey and shake all the turtle shells out. And then they suck back in their stomach across those razor sharp teeth. And hopefully they don't perforate anything. So, you know, not that that's what they don't do that every time, but it is a unique adaptive strategy. That's incredible. So, I have to say I've seen a cool video that I've shared with Loggerhead guests just to sort of give them some some ease when they see the nurse sharks, which are clearly not enemies of the turtle, but about a turtle that escapes into the reef because the sharks can't go into super shallow water and it's so inspiring to see the way turtles actually, you know, are able to survive a lot of shark attacks. I don't know if you wanna, you know, you probably have a lot more insight into that than I do. Yeah, I mean, the other adaptive strategy, you know, sharks are are predominantly ambush predators. So, you know, they do use sneak attack methods or sneak bite. Everybody uses the term shark attack. I hate that term. Like, they're premeditated, you know, serial killers. But, you know, in the wild, they do need to eat. Just like anything else in the ocean, they have a role and a very important role to play in the ecosystem, just as sea turtles do. But so one of the strategies that sea turtles have is to actually barrel roll like a fighter plane around the sea turtle, around the shark's head, keeping the widest part of the shell towards the shark. You know, turtles can do that hopefully long enough to get to, like you mentioned, the reef or some rocks to get some structure to hide in. Yeah. We're gonna post a bunch of those videos and info on the show notes, so check them out, if you're, if you wanna see more. We won't post any of a shark eating and extruding or whatever the right word is, its stomach to get rid of the shell, I promise, but you can probably look that up. Yeah, so, yeah, it's really fun to watch them spin around the shark and be able to maneuver like you wouldn't think that, sea life is so incredible watching what they're capable of physically in the wild. Like I don't think we really underappreciate the maneuverability and agility of sea life. Yeah. I think one of the things that teaches you very quickly is if you try to, collect fish with a net. You know, I think one of one of my jobs has been, to to be able to, kind of in a very smart, very conservation aware way, actively collect fish for for public aquariums when in my prior roles. Being able to do that in a very sustainable way, a very eco conscious way, you know, but nothing will teach you better that that fish are really good at evading things than trying to catch them with a a vinyl net when you're kinda ungainly. You're not very fast underwater. It's not our element. So you actually have to use the your most powerful muscle, which is your brain, which is in fact much bigger than our fish brain. So you gotta use the human's ability to outthink a fish rather than outswim it because you won't catch it that way. Yeah, it's a really important lesson. Use what our superpowers are, not what we'd like them to be. Absolutely. Yeah. What comes up for me around the story of the shark and the turtle being in the same space is the turtle goes out to eat in the deeper water. It can't only I guess live in the reef where they're safer and this whole sense of being aware of your environment, but having to take risks, gets to this whole beautiful story of being not making a mistake. Like you do the best you can in that moment and that's what the whole, you know, story of the balance of nature is. Right? Like, we have to take risks. So just is there anything you got a good story for us around that? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think it's it's a 2 part lesson. 1, you have to take risks, but I think every day is a little risky. So I may think you don't, you know, everybody kind of thinks about sea turtles and what they eat. A lot of people don't realize that every species of turtle has a very different diet. The leatherbacks, which are the biggest sea turtle species, they eat almost their weight per day in jellyfish, or I call them jellies because they're not fish. So, you know, they this is the largest species of turtle that's been adapted to eat this thing that's like a sack of jam, and they eat a lot of those. They eat them in the very deep ocean, pelagic waters, so there is not a ton of predators. But you do talk about the the 3 that are more reef dwelling species, the green, the loggerhead, and the hawksbills. When they forage, the loggerheads eat crabs and lobsters, the green sea turtles eat, seagrass, and the hawksbills eat sponge, almost predominantly. So I think, you know, each of these has adapted their own strategy for how to hunt and where that's gonna dictate that they live. But, certainly going out feeding and paying attention to where food is, is a risky endeavor for these things. I think as humans, you know, I can look at my own career and where I took the biggest risks are where the biggest rewards were. And I think, you know, for me, those two life lessons were most played out. You know, as a as a budding marine biologist, I started at the aquarium in Baltimore when I was 15, the National Aquarium. My first opportunity to do a full time job was at the Henry Dorley Zoo in Omaha, Nebraska. Both my parents grew up in Nebraska at the age of 17. As you mentioned, my dad joined the Navy to get out of Nebraska as quickly as he could. So I think when I when I told my parents I was gonna go as a budding marine biologist in Nebraska, they were trying to wave me off that path as hard and as fast as as they could. But this was back dating myself a little bit, this was back in 1995. This was long before a lot of the aquariums that people know today have been opened. So there was not a lot of aquariums opening. And for me, it was a chance to go as an, to help build an aquarium, which was a rare occasion. And then also, I was able to take care of the big shark exhibit there and be the primary aquarist there. So I think it, you know, that was a risk. I was there for about 4 years, came back to the aquarium in Baltimore, and then I think the other risk that I took was when I was at the aquarium in Baltimore, the National Aquarium, there was 2 there was another aquarium that was not affiliated, the National Aquarium in Washington DC, the basement of the Commerce Building and arguably the worst aquarium and probably the country, if not the world. Well, I mean, the basement of the Commerce Museum sort of says that, right? Yeah. We changed that to the lower level of the Commerce Building once we renovated it. But, you know, I think when we took it over, it was the basement of the Commerce building. It was dark, it was dingy. We renovated 60 out of 65 exhibits with a NOAA grant, and really kind of turn that space around. We were able to focus that aquarium on America's aquatic treasures. People come to DC for a pilgrimage to see everything about our nation. So, you know, I think everybody was saying you're crazy. And in fact, I went down to do the first, survey of the space for National Aquarium and was asked my opinion. I said run for the hills. That's in Nebraska. Yeah. They said, don't run. They said, we're not gonna run for the hills. We're gonna take it over. And I said, well, I'll go down and help be part of the renovation. We had some amazing team members that we inherited, when we took over that that that facility. And, I was down there for 7 years. Ultimately, that facility closed. Just for me, that was probably the riskiest career move I made. But, ultimately, I think taught me, number 1, a lesson, and, you know, we had an amazing executive director there that taught us taught me a lot about leadership. So I think, to me, it was you know, there there's no no reward without risk. Yeah. I mean, thinking about the Nebraska Aquarium, I mean, the idea of exposing people to the beauty and importance of our oceans is kind of mind blowing, and at Loggerhead, even though we're on the water and it's only a few miles to get there from the communities that are just off the water, most of these people, most of these kids have never been to the ocean and know nothing about it, so watching these school groups come in and learn and be so beautifully connected to the work that Lagerhead does about both ocean conservation and, you know, exploring what the the brilliance of marine life is, Kaizen. Sorry, guys. I gotta jump in. I've been jumping at the bit. I'm from Nebraska. Oh, really? And I grew up going to the Omaha, Henry Zoo. I fell in love with the ocean because of that aquarium. That sounds awesome. Here I am on the other side, and, Andy, you played a role in that. And and, Jessica, to your point, it is so incredible because we don't have access to the oceans. And, god, I had to jump in and let you know that you had a profound impact on my childhood, which is crazy. What are the odds? Right? Like, that this was a pretty good small world. That's fantastic. I'll let you get back to it. Thank you. You know, it's interesting though because, wait, I was at the Chicago Shed Aquarium this weekend. Great place. Yeah, but, I was really awed by the combination of local sea life that they highlight and the conversations that were going on around me where parents, a lot of fathers, were showing their kids and talking about these different breeds of fish in like really knowledgeable ways. I mean, this is a community that does know its local waterways and does have a relationship with them and then they go to the ocean part and see the sharks and the turtles and it's like a completely different world that you know that opens their eyes up and their imaginations up. It's this, you know, being off the coast is really cool to bring both of that, like your local Americana. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was a big choice for me going to Nebraska is these are people that will probably in their lifetime not ever snorkel with sharks. They're not gonna snorkel with stingrays. They're not gonna see a paired fish. So for me, that that was also part of the decision. Also, I was 22 years old, so I was just looking for a job. I mean, I think that's part of it and a and a great job. But I think it also weighed into my decision to help open the aquarium in Toronto. Ripley's, Aquariums is actually part of Ripley's Believe It or Not, which is a really is a over a 100 year old brand. Most people are not aware, they actually have 3 world class aquariums, 1 in Myrtle Beach, 1 in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, and 1 in and I got to open the one in Toronto, which was the newest one. But very similar, you know, I think that's a fairly standard thing within a lot of aquariums. Monterey Bay Aquarium really kinda kicked off that model of let's let's focus on the local waterways in an aquarium. Because even though you're at the beach or you're at the coast, most people are not engaging below the surface of the water. So Monterey Bay really, I think, knocked it out of the park with that local ecosystem aquarium. But since that time, there's a lot of folks, even though the the aquarium in Baltimore, we had a Maryland Chesapeake Bay Gallery. When I opened the aquarium in Toronto, I think one of our more popular galleries was the Canadian Waters Gallery. And to your point, we had parents and kids saying, hey, that's a walleye. I I caught that at the lake. I didn't know what they looked like underwater. So I think that that was a really cool element of bringing that. And I think it also, in Toronto, we use that as the first gallery, I think, to open conversations. And then you leave there, and then you walk down this ramp, and it's a 20 foot coral, kelp forest, like you'd find in British Columbia. So I think then you dump out into what we called our rainbow reef, which is our tropical Pacific. You know, you go from browns and greens and oranges to every color of the rainbow. So I think, but by that point in time, you've seen they're familiar, and now it's time to see the otherworldly. So I think that's a really great experience. And I think to get to your point about the kids at Loggerhead, it is why we have aquariums here. We prior to our expansion in 2022, we had 2 or 3 little small aquariums, but we wanted to add a much larger aquarium component for for a couple reasons. We are an active sea turtle hospital. We only keep turtles long enough to get them rehabilitated and back into the ocean. That's our mission. That's our goal. Our head veterinarian is an absolute dynamic, amazingly talented veterinarian, and she has a very treat them and street them mentality, as I call it. Get them treated, get them back in the surf, and out. So on any given day here at Loggerhead and Mean Life Center, we might have 5 turtles. We might have 22 turtles. But that's why we wanted one of the reasons we wanted aquariums as well. We have a large jelly aquarium. We've got a coral reef aquarium, mangrove, and and gulf stream. And the and the reason that is to show the habitat that these turtles live in, because just focusing our conservation efforts on turtles is not gonna help unless we help the ecosystem. And as I mentioned, they all have very different foods. So seagrass beds are incredibly important to green sea turtles. Because of the phosphates and the fertilizer in the water, we're seeing seagrass die off at an alarming rate. It's affecting sea turtles and manatees. The coral reefs are struggling, due to temperature in the oceans and the disease called semi coral tissue loss disease. And then we also know that, so that's affecting sponge and coral reefs, and then all the animals that live on those, the crabs, the lobsters that the loggerheads live in. So, I think it was important for us to show the habitat side of things, not just the sea turtle thing. Yeah, I mean, I have to say that, you know, I grew up in Manhattan, total city kid, didn't really get exposed to I didn't, not didn't really, didn't really, didn't get exposed to the ocean and marine life and nature the way. I mean, I lived across from Central Park, but it wasn't, and I went to the zoo all the time, but those were the days where the cages in the zoo were like, right? It was great to be a kid because the elephant was like this far for me, right, but not so good for the elephants. And I, you know, moved into the beach with no expectations, no idea that our area was both the densest sea turtle nesting place in the world only maybe after some place in the Middle East and that we had We were right next to the Gulf Stream and that the snorkeling and scuba diving walking distance from where I lived was like one of the best also. So, I went over to a loggerhead to volunteer because I fell in love with the turtles and the spot that was open because it was just opening were the aquariums. So, I knew nothing. Like, I mean, I walked in and I got trained by on-site by these amazing volunteers who are passionate past, marine biologists and learned these incredible stories of nature and nature's conservation and the balance of nature and I learned about the parrotfish, which is literally how this all started, where it's like these turtles have a role, they eat the sponges because they need to have a balance or else they'll overgrow. So we need to protect turtles, we need to protect the ocean so that we can protect turtles, so that they can eat the sponges, so that they can eat the jellies so they don't overtake and all that, and the parrot fish who eats, and there's an episode that's coming up about it, that the parrot fish that eats its favorite food of algae and cleans the coral out and then makes sand, like crazy stories of the importance that we just totally underestimate and don't think about. So, you know, it changed my life to hear these stories. That's one of the reason, main reason I'm offering them back to people and getting people like Yuan who like have been living in this world literally and have so much important stuff to offer us, so thank you for the work you do and all that you're bringing, and none of it seems like you could ever look at it as a mistake as you said in terms of learning, right? Like every risk you took, every choice you made, putting the nurse sharks in and everybody going, is there enough space for these nurse sharks in there? Like, aren't they? And you'll walk by and be like, you know what, I'm the shark guy. I know how much space they need. I promise you, they're happy there. So, this whole. Yeah, I mean, I think obviously there's been a lot more focus as there should have been. You mentioned the old Bronx Zoo. The AZA is a organization that's leading kind of this global change in how people and animals interact. And even and other organizations have actually put out a lot of press lately that say, without zoos, aquariums, and botanical gardens, there are uncounted numbers of species that would probably be extinct, whether that be the golden lion tamarin, whether that be the pillar coral. You know, these are what organizations, although we're not part of AZA because we're more of a sea turtle rehabilitation hospital than we are a major public aquarium, is but all these organizations are focused on conservation. We don't, the staff that work there are not driving BMWs. You know, these are animal care staff that are dedicated because they're passionate about not just working with animals, but working with animals in a way that protects them for the long haul. And, I think for me, it's really looking at, you know, especially what we see with what's happening now in the in the in the polar regions of our country and in our world, of, you know, if people had never seen a polar bear before or a walrus before, would people really care if they disappeared? So I think that's that plays a big role in the mission of zoos and aquariums and botanical gardens and nature centers and science centers is having that that explanation, having that experience. Because, you know, for me, I was very lucky. I saw my first shark at age 4, snor or 5, snorkel with my dad. I learned how to snorkel, and then I was in, Big Pine Key and snorkeling on Lou Key with my dad. Saw a 6 foot Caribbean reef shark. That's a bathing suit soiling experience when you were 5 years old. I'm not sure if literally or figuratively, but, you know, I think, you know, it is it's a it's a it's quite an experience at 5 to see a shark that's bigger than you are, especially in the late seventies when Jaws is at its peak. Right. Yeah. And they're bringing it back, which is not a good thing. I don't Yeah. So I think, you know, that that to me was foundational, and I think aquariums can play that same role. So I see the role of the Loggerhead Marine Life Center is that that first glimpse of inspiration. As you mentioned, you know, there are a lot of kids around here that come to our school groups. The one of the one of the main draws for me to come to Loggerhead was that free access. So we are a no admission facility. We take donations at the door. We have what's called the Gordon Gray Circle 100. It's the our highest level of donors that do 5,000 a year annually towards our annual fund. We are in a very philanthropic place in what North, Palm Beach County. We have some absolutely truly amazing, very generous donors that that donate on our behalf, but we also get a lot in door donations. And the other recipe, to our success is we have a boutique gift store. Yeah. That is such a good job, I have to say. And and, you know, we we have an amazing buyer who's been here 27 years. She's been a, you know, a critical part of the success of light of Loggerhead. So it is this blend of private and foundation giving and retail success, just not through tickets. And what I love about that is it allows kids from Palm Beach County and Martin County and Broward County that would not normally get the chance to come to the beach, even though there's free parking, free access. We know that. You know, when I was down in Miami at at Frost Science, we had kids that lived 5 miles away Frost Science that had never been to the beach because parking at the beach was 35, 30, $40, and that's well out of reach for certain families. So I think the goal of most zoos, aquariums, Palm Beach County is blessed with a number of amazing animal operations from Bush Wildlife to Palm Beach Zoo, Cox Sciences Building, an aquarium. So Palm Beach County just really is truly rich with animal experiences. So I think getting those kids to have that first spark, and maybe that starts a conversation and they take one step up the conservation ladder. Yeah, actually I've been inspired by, there's a lot of interns around from the high school programs that they actually have some marine science programs and these kids are so inspiring, like to see the next generation of kids who care about and because they've been connected to the ocean for years having grown up there. So, it's just an inspiring, It's inspiring to be around a multi generational, multi socioeconomic sort of experience in a very, very bubble sort of county, right, or area and that nature can bring these people, bring it all together, right? Like the awe, the lessons, the beauty, the resilience, like all of it. So, the fact that we're saving species from extinction, which is very much a reality, by having these formal aquariums and zoos and all the rest is something that we need to get the message out more. Right? Like, because we live on donors. We live on on philanthropy. So Correct. Yeah. And I I think too there if you, you know, I I I read my Apple News every morning, and I think there's a lot of doom and gloom in there. I think we we have we certainly have to be paying attention to what's happening on the planet, you know, from fossil fuels to fertilizers to, you know, you name it. You know, the world does not seem like a rosy place. I've got 2 kids, 17 and 14. They have climate and and planet anxiety of what what's gonna be facing me when I'm your age, dad, you know, if this is what's happening now and and in my lifetime. As I said, I I my first snorkel in Florida was the Blue Key in in Big Pine Key, and that reef does not look the same as it did when I started in 19 79, 1980. That that is a very different place than it was when I was a kid, and not and I will a 100% not for the better. So I think those that doubt environmental degradation, I can tell you firsthand it's happening, and it's happening because of heat stress. It's happening because of pollution. It's happening because of chemicals. All those are are real things. And, you know, I think it's okay to to to kind of doubt the source and question the source. As scientists, we should be questioning why this is happening. But I think for me, we have to balance that doom and gloom and not add to it. So I think for me, this is a place of hope for sea turtles. Yeah. You know? Yes. We're seeing human induced injuries. We're seeing entrapment in monofilament. We're seeing ingestion of plastic. We're seeing hits by boats. At the same time, when we do a beach release to 2,000 people and the turtle crawls down the beach and heads back into the ocean where it's supposed to be, I think those are, those are uplifting and inspiring stories that we need to, we need to balance those. Another great story, I think, of resilience is coral reefs. We're hearing you know, last year was absolutely detrimental to Florida's coral reef. We have 2 ongoing things going on. There's a stony coral tissue loss disease, which scientists are still trying to figure out. We've worked a lot with that. But what we found from a resilience standpoint, if humans get engaged, we can put antibiotic paste on certain corals and stop the progression of the disease. It's a very labor intensive thing. We've also, last summer, had the most extreme heat that we've ever had. We had aquariums and government agencies working around the country, not just around Florida, pulling sensitive corals out like the pillar coral, which is a iconic species that's almost near extinction in Florida, pulling those out of the ocean, holding them until water temperatures went down and the disease pathway makes its course to hopefully go back and restore those. And people like Florida Aquarium, Frost Science, and others, SeaWorld, are working very closely on that issue. So, you know, I think those are the things that that give me hope, and I think that's that's why I think one of our roles at Loggerhead is to to tell the hope stories, not just, hey, you gotta you know, know, people only wanna hear so often how much they need to change their behaviors. If you can tell them why, and you can show them a positive case on on, hey, this is where your plastic ended up, or this is, you know, why you need to take your fishing line away from the pier and put it in one of the disposable containers, or even better, the recycling containers. And this is what it will help. This is a this is a a hope story, not a not a feel bad story. Such a beautiful, important statement. So I hope everybody will rewind and listen to that again. And it reminds me, Andy, of the decision you made to go to Nebraska as a kid and you said, and it seems like your parents were like, this is gonna be a mistake, that whole construct of mistake and just the commitment that the people in the world of these what I call purpose driven, I mean, and as you said, they're not doing this to get rich, nobody's doing this to get rich, and it's actually the other way. Like, it's that there's this real imbalance, I believe, in the rewards that people who follow their passions to help our world are drastically under rewarded, and it makes it really hard to feel like, you know, are you sure you're not making a mistake by going into purpose driven versus profit driven? So, you know, the people I remember the conversation we were having in our lunch chat or our snack chat up on the deck in the spring. I think I asked you what a dream would be and what a next beautiful thing to happen you said something about you would love to have some extra cash to just give your your team you know a bonus so that they could get a little relief from the financial pressure they're all living on So I'm not using your words exactly, but that was the gist that I heard. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, the choices that the people who commit to this world of hope for reversing what happened in the seventies eighties, trying to recover from it and what they really deserve, what you all really deserve. I mean, you know, for me, I'm I'm I'm a biologist at heart, so I don't think anybody deserves anything. I think you gotta work incredibly hard for whatever you want in life. I don't I don't necessarily believe anybody's owed anything. That's very fair. I love that. Yeah. But I think, you know, I think it's unfair to also say that that folks that are in in financial for for financial gain, I mean, that that's just as as lofty a pursuit. And I look at inventors that invent things because they want to get a patent to make a lot of money. Ultimately, they end up changing the world for the better. I mean, look at the guy that invented the intermittent wipers that decades Love my intermittent wipers. Yeah. 40 years later, he finally got a payoff after fighting all the car companies. And, you know, I mean, like, that there's there's that there's those tales of of work and and pressure and and consistency. I think that's a great story. The the guy that designed that ended up eventually making 1,000,000 of dollars, but it took a long haul. I also think successful business people, in the business world are are part of what helps us do what we do. Because if you don't have that if you don't have the folks that have the the generous wealth to give away, we don't operate. So I think it's a yang and a yang. A balance, just like everyone, the shark versus the shark, right? Like everybody's in balance. So I think whether you're in humanitarian work, feeding homeless, you know, we've got so many great organizations that are doing humanitarian work in Palm Beach County as well from, you know, The Arc to El Sol. I mean, I think there's some amazing places that are focused on the human side. But I think there is, you know, certainly a a subset of people that are pulled to the nature aspect, whether that be national parks, land stuff, furry raccoons, or or scaly sea turtles. But I think it is important for people to know, you know, our animals eat better than even I do. I'm a CEO, and our animals get a better food budget than I use on a on a monthly basis. Lobster sometimes too that people Yeah. Lobster is lobster is oftentimes on the menu. So I think it's understanding that these people are doing this for their passion. You know, I think there was a time period where and there still are. There's critics of zoos and aquariums, and, you know, that that's the best part about America. They're they're they're able to be critics if they wanna be critics, but I would just challenge that to to say that most of the people in that business are not in it to make money. They're not in it. And even even the organizations, most of them are 501c3 nonprofit organizations. And that money, like it does here at Loggerhead, goes right back into the organization. If we wanna build a new program, renovate a facility, operating a campus this large, literally, you know, less than a block from the beach. That saltwater tears apart our HVAC units. It tears apart our vehicles. So the annual upkeep for our facility is quite large. Our just even anybody knows the Florida insurance market knows that our building insurance is quite expensive for loggerheads. So I think it's having people fully understand what a 501c3 is and that and where that money can go. But, yeah, I mean, ultimately, you know, those folks that choose to work for us, do choose, you know, to to to take a passion job, not a not a not a profit job. And I think getting out, getting started in the aquarium business, the nature center business, the museum business, most most entry level people either have a significant other, a roommate, or a second job. Or all of them. Or or and and when I was in Omaha, I had all of them and probably gave some plasma somewhere along the line too. So, you know, I think that's so for me, I guess probably because I'll never forget where I started is just trying to say, okay, our our team is killing it. You know, they're they're doing amazing work. Last year, we had the most attendance we've ever had. We had the most sea turtle patients we've ever had and released. We had our highest, nesting numbers. So our research team that's out all night, you know, they're they're coming in at 6 in the morning while the next team's going out to go look at the sea turtle nest. So I think these are are very passionate people working long hours, working hard hours, that, you know, to me, no matter what we're doing, it it really is the team that that makes it worthwhile. And and I think if you talk to the the Bush Wildlife staff, they would say the same thing. Yep. They're slotted to come do do one of these. Yeah. You know, I think I think it's it's a common thread among environmentally serving organizations is you have passionate people. And, you know, for me, yeah, if I had if I had a giant wad of cash, what would I do with it? You know, aside from some building improvements, I think, you know, rewarding our staff that have worked really hard. Yeah. I mean, this this it's interesting because I, you know, there's I think this probably happens every generation, but I'm witnessing it as a parent of kind of people and kids in the new generation in their 20s that there's this passion for, and pressure from us older generation to fix and heal and take care of our planet. And, you know, there's this huge sense of hope that it's gonna happen. You know, we've turned a corner. We're worrying and we're there's no negative for many people about caring about our world versus caring about just profit, but you've really inspired me in the times I've heard you speak about how they can go together. Like, we need to have purpose driven, I'm not going to call them non profit, purpose driven organizations that are sustainable, that between all of the forms of funding and that that should be something we're proud of as opposed to the, you you know, we should suffer if we follow our passions. So, you're an inspiration. I think that that's also probably a perception on nonprofits that we don't always run as a shrewd business, because the profit is really the only way you really sharpen that pencil. But, you know, I think what what's been interesting for me is always looking at, you know, even on the animal side is how how do you maximize your budget? How do you get more with less? You know, I think that's it it's important to understand that in the animal world, I I will never cut corners. It's not like, hey, let's reuse that surgery cause, you know, or let's let's skimp on the the animal food. Right? But there are some some some nonstarter issues that that we're not gonna look there for budget relieving things, but there are ways to do things better. One of those is training your staff. We have an amazing life support team here. You know, when something breaks, our team is trained to fix it. It's amazing to watch, like, in a second, And they know what they're doing, and they swoop in and and fix crazy stuff. Absolutely. And but every time we do that, we're saving 10, $40,000, you know, from bringing an outside contractor in to to do it for us. So I think it's capacity building. I think at the end of the day, trying to run your nonprofit, with this tight of margins as you can, a for profit entity, is not a bad thing. It just allows you to do more. And then if you're successful, then you can put that money back into a project or a renovation or your staff. And your lesson that you just offered us is incredibly valid and important for us as individuals, right? Like figure out the stuff that's most important, don't skimp on it, invest in yourself, and then figure out how to raise your whole capacity to live life stronger and more resiliently. So, thank you for that explanation of how we should all be living, not just how an organization that does good work should be living. Yeah. It's funny because I'm a I'm a diehard outdoor enthusiast. I've camped for 5 weeks in Alaska on a sharp assignment. And, you know, I was just camping up. I went up to see my old neighborhood in in Toronto, and we went up to Algonquin Park, which is one of my favorite places in the world. It's north of Toronto. And, all all all the buddies I was with had, you know, not to knock it, but cheaper, you know, Walmart tents. And we it rained for 2 days. They always joke me at me because I've got the nicest camping gear. I'm like, well, when you're doing 5 weeks in Alaska, I'll I'll skimp on food, but I'm not gonna skimp on a tent. So I think it is. It's, it's, it's, it's spend, spend the resources where those resources are time, energy, or money, and the things that matter that are going to keep the rain off your back. And then look at where you can, look at where you can cut costs to go a little bit further, and I think that's what nonprofits need to do. Yeah, and to our resilience lesson connected to the sea turtles and false crawls of not making mistakes and doing the best we can with the information we have and the resources we have and the energy that we have, like those people who camped with you didn't know any better, right? So, they didn't make a mistake buying those tents, they did the best they could because that was the information they had, And now that they've experienced you and your tent and you're not getting wet for 2 days, they will make a different decision, but it wasn't a mistake to make the other one. So, you know No. They and then, you know, they're they're used to summer camping in Canada, which never rains. So they made the best decision at the time. But it is funny, because I mean, I think mistakes are learning lessons in themselves. When I look back at my career, although I've, I think I've had the most career gain by taking risks, where I've probably learned the most is when I made mistakes. Whether that be in how I managed, how I led, a function I did, a valve I forgot to turn off and flooded the floor. You know, I think in in for me, that's important here at Loggerhead is as long as it doesn't involve a ton of wasted revenue, and as long as it doesn't affect animal or human safety, I think mistakes have to be part of your learning experience at work. And then they certainly while I think a sea turtle false crawl is not a mistake, they are certainly seeing cues, whether that be people or light or the wrong grain sand of the, you know, we'll never fully know what causes that. But, you know, there could be conditions like, oh, wow, this beach is too hot, or this beach has the wrong sand, or that light over there is bothering me, or that there's a dog that I can hear. You know, I think there's a lot of things within, while not a mistake, it's a learning lesson. Yeah. Important for us to remember that even if we call it a learning lesson that we actually do learn from it and not beat ourselves up, that it was a mistake also, like just be able to just shut down the negative thinking and see it as opportunity. And what can I do? I can put a sign up that says, don't leave this on, like this can leak overnight or whatever it is. You know, like we keep learning how to make lives a little bit better lives a little bit better if we stop and process that and don't beat ourselves up. So that's a big part of the lesson. Yeah. I'd be lying if I said I didn't make the same mistake twice. But you've probably made it 3 times. Right? Yeah. Hopefully hopefully you don't do that too often. Three strikes and you're out. So, Andy, this has been unbelievably awesome for for me to be in this conversation with you. Thank you so much. I would love if you just give us one, like, really cool little anecdote of your favorite something that you love a story you love to share just to sort of wrap us up and then tell us what you're looking to do going forward that's on the in your vision and your planning. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, one of those is at the aquarium in Nebraska, the Interdley Zoo. We were one of the few aquariums that's ever tried to maintain a tiger shark. Not a sand tiger shark, but a tiger shark. We did that successfully for In its own tank, I imagine? It was in it was in an aquarium with other shark species and coral reef fishes. But she she did not transport very well. So I ended up pushing her for about 5 hours to keep her swimming and breathing. Wow. So you were in the water with her? Yeah. In the water with her for 5 hours just pushing. And, I think some somewhere along that line, she bonded, which would which would not be something I would have predicted for a shark. I mean, I think if you most people will think sharks are fairly low low intelligence, but they they actually are quite smart. So whenever I would get in that aquarium after that, she would swim down the tunnel and and give me a high five with her fin on my forehead, which is spectacular. When you're dealing with what you know, when you look at the numbers, this is probably the 3rd most dangerous shark, but it it you know, I think it's all relevant, relative. So I think, you know, for me, that that was a really special memory that, you know, that these sharks are really capable of learning, and deeper than just go to because we train sharks a lot in the aquarium industry to go to color or shape targets. They learn that behavior fairly quickly with positive rewards for food. You can stop that behavior, and they'll come back to it if you resume it, like, a month, 2 months later, which means they can retain information as well. So I think that was kind of a cool moment that that, you know, you can't just be thinking of the the the biological needs of an animal. You have to be thinking of the emotional and and mental needs of the animal, which is why, you know, at our in our sea turtle hospital holding tanks here at at Loggerhead, we actually put what looked like jungle gyms, in in the tanks made of PVC and pipe. And that's so that the turtles, while they're here for the short window of time that they're here, have something to interact with. Can I swim through that? Can I go under it? Can I move around it? And we mix those up all the time and that that's very deliberate. And then I think the other thing for me, just from, I think transitioning from from sharks to turtles. I've I've always worked with turtles in the aquarium setting. I've always loved sea turtles. But I think when I started, I was like, oh man, here comes the shark guy to the turtle hospital. How's he gonna fit in? And, but I think it's it to your point, it's this resiliency. It's this having these experiences that start building that emotional connection. I was already emotionally connected to sea turtles, but, you know, my brand was always the sea the shark guy. So when I as soon as I got here, I started doing the the hatchling releases. I went out with the research team the 1st summer, that I was here. So I got to watch a loggerhead, lay her eggs. Just amazing stuff. And then actually, finally, this summer, I was able to get, out when they did the leatherback research. That's crazy cool. I was out with a £950 leatherback named Emerald, and, she was nesting. They did all the the biometrics that they do. They took blood, and the research team said, hey, we we can take you back to your car or there's another leatherback up at the inlet. If you wanna see another one. I said, is there a third option? Like, what do you mean? I said, can I just stay here with Emerald? They're like, yo, but you're gonna have to walk home. I said, that's fine. So I spent literally an hour with Emerald watching her finish burying her nest, listening to her breathe, and then just sat peacefully by her while she crawled all the way back to the ocean. So I think for me That's amazing. You know, as someone who's worked, you know, in Alaska, I've been around grizzly bears. I've been around marine mammals. You know, I've I've had some amazing animal experiences in my lifetime. I've been very jaded that way. Swam with 14 foot tiger sharks, 16 foot great hammerheads. So I think this experience was epic on that level. And for me, it was that that last bit of secret sauce that that just added that extra story element to and it's funny because I think when I started here, you know, part of my job was to meet with donors, and it's connecting those kind of stories to the donor community. And I think that was that last story I really needed in my toolkit for how to really get people to care about what we're doing. And I think that was awesome because I, you know, I had the best time out with our research team, having that experience. I actually had a better time with the research team left. And I was just me and Emerald, sharing a beach having a date night. So beautiful. It was like when we watched the turtles in front of our building, nest and hatch. And just the from beginning to end the whole thing in witnessing and being really in the entire cycle of this part of their life is just priceless. Like to see them come out, do the whole nesting, go back in, and then the babies and the promo, you can hear me, you know, like, oh my God, they know which way to go. Like how freaking cool is that? So tell us what's up next, where you're headed, what you love. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think for us this, we've really spent the last 2 years just refining our business model here. As I mentioned, we have the the higher highest number of visitation that we've ever had. We also run the Juno Beach Pier. Mhmm. That's a great website. We have a we'd have an underwater 360 degree camera, so people can we actually have a whole group of amateur fish enthusiasts that are, like, highlighting what species are under there. I I get to go in kind of covertly. They don't know who I am as as a fish biologist, and kind of comment as to what fish but even just this morning, we had a bonnet head shark under the pier. We've seen goliath grouper, things like that. So, you know, so to me, it's it's it's taking our campus and our expanded campus, which includes the pier, really refining that business model, making it an incredible visitor experience. Couple that with the donor experience, because we have such an amazingly generous group of donors. We've we've become much more hands on. If if someone is a very high level donor, we like to do or potential high level donor, very custom individual blue carpet tours, 45 minutes and out, get to see what we're about. We have a great event space, and I think early on, people didn't quite understand why we're building an event space at Loggerhead. And it's really, number 1, it helps it helps keep, free visitation. And, you know, we need we need a complex group of revenue generating options, and this space works perfectly for that. It's spectacular. I've been there to help teach about the aquariums during the weddings, and the wedding, for the rehearsal dinners, and so, like where is life better than having that as your history for where you formed that bond of community, right? Yeah. I mean, the cool thing about the event space, it does bring people that wouldn't normally come to Loggerhead on a weekend. We're also trying to find more adult things. As I was in the community, I heard, oh, yeah. I brought my kid there or I bring my grandkids there. Like, okay. Kid kids are not a pre prerequisite to come to Loggerhead. There's a lot of learning activities. So I think we've gotten to the point where we've really kind of shored up our brand. We've spent a lot of time and energy in marketing. We've now got billboards on 95. I saw. Yeah. And then we're on the bright line. So really kind of At the airport. For me now, it's there I think there's some smart growth that we need to do. There's some internal. We're in the middle of kind of renovating our welcome center even though we just did a big run of expansion. There were some things we wanted to tweak in the welcome center. There's some things we wanna tweak in in our in our indoor space called 1 Ocean Hall. Not a lot of big change, but I think it's just to me, it's it's taking that brand and and executing it better. And I think for me, at the end of the day, it's it's trying to build our visitation, and and and also very focused building our visit visitation by the underserved community. Because if we're gonna be a free access facility, the goal of that is to expose people. So I think it's really looking at vehicles and methods. We do a lot of work with title 1 schools, in Palm Beach County. So I think that's an area we're very strong already. But how how do we do things? Maybe it's a, you know, maybe it's a a gas card giveaway to to cover the cost of gas to come to Loggerhead. You know, I think that's one of our roles in the community dating back to our founder, Eleanor Fletcher, is exposure to marine life, for those that can't afford it. And I think that's where we really wanna see some growth. Or don't know to prioritize it. Yeah. Mhmm. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Andy. It's been such a treat, such an honor, and, I can't wait to get back in a couple of months down there to be on-site and having these conversations. So thank you. Absolutely. We look forward to having you back on campus. See you soon. Thanks, Ian. Thank you for listening to Resilience Gone Wild, where we dive into the incredible stories of nature's adaptation and survival and discover what animals and plants can teach us about resilience in building our win win win mindset. If you've been enjoying our deep dives into the wild world of animal resilience, we've got a little favor to ask. Just like all 7 species of sea turtle, keep our coral reefs in seagrass beds, you can help our podcast thrive. Here's how. Rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback not only helps us improve, but also helps other listeners discover these amazing stories of resilience. This has been a production of BLI Studios produced by me, Kai. Follow along with our other BLI produced shows atbalancinglifesissues.com/podcastdashbli. Got an idea for the show? Email me, Kai, atbalancinglifesissues.com. And don't forget to stay in touch with your host, Jessica, atjessica@winwinwinmindset.com. Anything else to add, Miles?
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