There's that old saying in unity, there is strength. Well, it's certainly true. And quite true for empowering black women in higher education. Stay tuned. I'm Bert Cohen and with your help. We are keeping democracy alive. If barely. He's not breathing. Course. Barely. American exceptional What does that mean? Well, every man for himself and they did mean man? The demand that each of us relies exclusively, on lifting ourselves by our own bootstrap. Right? Of course, it's a myth. It's never been true. And the very real damage that nationalist self blinded view has caused in the world is all too evidently pervasive. Just in our own country, but in the long standing disdain for others in the world community of nations, Thankfully, in the twentieth and 20 first centuries that rigid insistence is being challenged more and more. Not quickly enough, of course, but change is always slower and more incremental than many of us would like. Overwhelming military power is 1 thing, but America could be truly a stronger nation, if instead of excluding others, we recognize the importance and value of community, We have a system that routinely dis powers its own people and turns its back on significant opportunities to lift all of us up and boost real national security. And when our goal is to take on systemic racism that process is impede by the insistence on the individual bootstrap myth. Racism after all, lumps people together as the other. Demanding that everyone act on their own ends up far short of the stated goals of equal just us an opportunity for all. Luckily, people who have been intentionally left out know that yes, in unity, there is strength, which leads us to today's guest on keeping democracy alive. Rochelle Wen Wagner, whose new book is titled the chosen we. Subtitle black women's empowerment and higher education. Thanks for being with us, Rochelle. It's my pleasure to be here. Rochelle Wink Wagner is professor of educational leadership and policy analysis at the University of Wisconsin Madison, in addition to serving on the editorial boards of review of educational research and review of higher education She's authored and edited over 60 articles and book chapters as well as books on diversity and the academy, including the un chosen me, black women and identity and higher education. Today will discuss the chosen we, or ninth book. Well, again, thanks for being with us. It and your your previous book was the chosen me. Tell us, please about the title of the new book the chosen we, what your intent was. Absolutely. The book that chosen we starts from a question and the question is in a society where many institutions, including colleges and universities are not set up black women's success or where institutions might even be set up in a way that promote obstacles for black women, how have they thrived, and many of them have? And and what I find in the book put simply that I know we're gonna dig into, more deeply today. I find that black women across put a hundred and 5 oral histories in 5 metropolitan areas, that 60 year time period in the book. Mh they... Thrived by building what I referred to as chosen we communities, communities that are really by and large communities with other black women? Mh. And and how does this new book the chosen way build on your previous 1? The chosen me. What what what would be useful to know about that related project to best understand this 1? The chosen me, which was my earlier work, was an eth demographic project that looked at black women who were currently enrolled in a large research university, that many of us in my field call predominantly white institutions, So these are, you know, the big state institutions that every state in our country has. And in that book, black women that were in this large research university that was predominantly white where they were maybe you 7 percent of the population or less. They were largely unable to define their own sense of self. They often felt as if they were, having who they should be imposed upon them by their friends on campus by faculty by administrators by the, you know, policies on campus. So that book was a bit of a sad story in some ways. And as I looked back on that book and I read the reviews of that book. I I became a little bit bothered by this pervasive question that keeps coming up, which was where is the agency? Why weren't they pushing back on these imposition on who they were supposed to be on campus? And the the answer that I came up with, came from the person who wrote the forward for my new book that's chosen we. Her name is Diana Slaughter Ko. And Diana looked at me at 1 point and she said, she's a black woman who was an academic for 40 years. She's a really preeminent just prominent like colleges. And she said, you know, Rochelle, I think some of the women in that book because they were currently enrolled in college, colleges maybe they couldn't see the ways that they really were indeed pushing back and resisting. So I said about trying to figure that out in the in the chosen we, and I talked to older women, so that I could have people reflect back on their experience and not be in it. And and indeed, I found a lot of agency in this new book. Interesting and rather good to know, kinda kinda hopeful that you find out people are pushing back, and I I assume University Wisconsin, which is a very big place, is, a predominantly white institution. Is that correct? Correct. Our population of Black students here at University of Wisconsin Madison has just plateau at 4 percent for decades and decades. And so when you think about what that looks like on a campus of 40000 students, it really means that students are going to class and they might look around, especially a black woman might look around. A big biology class or chemistry class, for example, that they might go to in their first few years of college, and they may see maybe 1 of their black student, or maybe not. They may go to a at a whole day of classes and not see another black student. And what that must feel like? My goodness. The new book imagine success as a result of recognizing what people owe 1 another. That's certainly a divergence from the... Usual line of thinking. Talk about that recognizing what people owe to 1 another, please. Yes. So as I said about these oral histories, I I traveled across the country to 5 different... Metropolitan areas, Atlanta, Georgia, Chicago, Illinois, detroit, New Orleans and then Lincoln and Omaha Nebraska. I put those 2 together in part to just soften the identities of people so that they weren't... But we don't know who they are, so that it could make them anonymous. U. And as I set out to do, these interviews. I I found this curious thing across a 60 year time period across all 5 different cities, And that is that, while many of these predominantly white campuses can be heavily isolating and alien eating spaces, that black women may have endured by themselves, but they persevere and thrived together. And so the answer absolutely is what do we owe each other? We owe each other community. We owe each other respect, and we owe each other, elevating 1 another. And that's what I learned from the women in this book across time and space across all 5 cities and in a 60 year time period over and over again, the answer was build community with other people and elevate 1 another and go at this together. And, yeah, it must have been very interesting research to do that. And I'm... I wonder how you chose. Those cities in those locations for your research? I started out by thinking about cities where there were concentrated black populations and where there might even be a bit of a dichotomy between black populations in the city that had gone through college education, so had, know, persevere reviewed through a college degree and parts of the black population the city that maybe didn't go to college. And I thought, you know, this would be a really interesting way to think about what it really means to go to college and what a college degree might meet across one's life for us to, you know, go to go to a city where they're to there are these populations out it's concentrated by populations in the city, you know, enough of a population where, people could find communities and friends and and spaces with 1 another. But where there also is, perhaps a part of the city where there there may be an under class, meaning people that Mh, have been, systematically marginalized or denied opportunities. And, you know, what might it look like I if I think about talking to black women in these cities who in many instances as I learned, these are these were black women who were leading their cities. They were leading their disciplines, leading their fields, leading political spheres. You know, doctors, lawyers in many instances highly highly educated people. So it created this really interesting way to think about what is it what is it college, degree mean and what does it mean to actually, you know, step foot on these campuses and and come away with the college degree Yeah. It means, that's always a a huge question about the investment that, parents generally make and the students themselves in paying for college education. Is it worth it, but that's that's subject for a different show. You say the black women have told their own stories for generations, but people haven't listened. What was there any... Skepticism from your subjects about why and if they should talk to you a white woman about their life, Talk about that, please. Absolutely. I started doing this work. Around 20 years ago, and, you know, at the time when I when I started thinking about, coming into community with black women and thinking about black women's lives and black women's roles in society and and what we owe black women as a society. I started thinking about that at a time when it seemed there were very few people who were studying that at least at the college level, you know, thinking about what does it mean for some... A black woman to get a college degree. I would say in in that 20 year time period, there's... There been many, many at black women who have graduated with a Phd and and been able to do this research and tell their own stories, But at the time I entered the field, there were there were fewer people doing this work. And then as I got into the work, I realized that in many of the classes that I had taken even in my Phd program and and certainly in my undergraduate, my college degree program, the stories from black women where they were speaking speaking their own lives, speaking their own stories, the series of black women, the knowledge of black women was systematically denied in many classrooms. And so it wasn't that black women weren't telling their own stories and weren't telling their own series and weren't creating their own knowledge. It's that no a lot of people, particularly in and white institutions that have been predominantly white. We're ignoring it and pushing it to the side. Wow. And so as I started the work in this book, and I I started to hear are some of the stories from these women. I turned to the hundred and 50 year tradition of Black feminist theory. Not because I could ever be a black Seminar I'm theorist because I identify as a white woman. But because the the oral histories that I was gathering were in direct conversation to that hundred 50 year history. Of knowledge creation and siri creation that black women had done and have been doing. So it's absolutely the case that it's been there all along. Yeah. It's just that a lot of people aren't hearing it. And and you say that as a... White woman focusing on black women, your credibility was in your words always up for grabs. Tell us about that, please. That was a really... I think powerful way for me to enter into community with black women. So I'll I'll give a story of, a woman that I interviewed who, at the time was living in Atlanta. And as I entered a lot of these cities, I used the powerful tool of gatekeepers, meaning that I asked, friends and colleagues in in each of these cities who are black women who had long lives and and histories in those cities to help me gain access to other black women in the city. This was a way for me to build trust and it was a way for me to quite frankly enter the cities that I didn't live in and be able to start to talk to people. So these gatekeepers often vouch for me and said, you know, yes. She she's a white woman and and and yet, you know, we're friends were colleagues and and and maybe we're collaborators. We certainly became collaborators, all of us. And Yeah. That that was a beautiful part of the project for sure, and I'll I'll be sure to name to name those folks here too. But even with the gatekeepers, you know, I I would sometimes enter into an interview, and this woman she called herself Pat in the book. I met with her in Atlanta. And she knew that she was gonna be meeting was a white woman because the person who had connected us, had said, you know, Rochelle is gonna be a white woman. And I always also sent an email or or a text message or something to say, you know, by the way I'm a white woman. You're just so that I wasn't surprising people. Right. And we entered into our conversation, and I was ready to to record the interview, and she said turned to me and she said Rochelle. Why should I tell you my story. Mh. And I I looked back to her and I said... And this is a I think this is just an example of, of, how I proceeded in the work in general. And I said to her. I said, you know what? I don't know if you should. I I we can we can sit here today, and you can decide if we've built enough trust for you to talk to me. Otherwise, you can talk to ask me questions. The truth is in every minute we're together, I'm gonna be trying to build trust or I might betray trust. I don't want to betray. Trust. I'm gonna be trying to build trust or in every minute we're together. But the truth is is that every single minute that we're together is on that line between building or trained trust. And I'm gonna do my best to stay on the line of of continuing to build trust, but you know and I know that this history of pretty serious tension between black women and white women, has existed for generations before us. And it entered the room before we even got here. And so that's sitting with us and we can't ever deny it. It's just there. And so we talked for 45 minutes, and she asked me a lot of questions about the work and why I do the work and and about me in my life. And then after about 45 minutes, she turned to me and she said, okay. Let's turn on the tape, I'll talk to you now. Right. And then and then she proceeded to tell me this wonderful whole, you know, oral history of of her own life. But it's just an example of, this this balance of of trust building and how it's really precarious. It's always it's always precarious. Yeah. It seems to me Franklin said something about respect. And, you know, having that in there. Just knowing that it's there. You... It sounds like an amazing, you know, spending all that time and and building it up seems like it was worthwhile. If you just tuned Dan Burke Cohen here, the show is keeping democracy alive. We're talking about an important subject, and that is empowerment of black women. Our guest today is Rochelle Wink Wagner, whose new book that we're talking about is titled the chosen we, black women's empowerment in higher education. And your research you did oral histories from a hundred 5 college educated black women from 19 54 through 20 14. That is quite a range. In 19 54 was a rather significant year in American history, but I can't help but think that the book illuminate some of what didn't didn't happen as a result of the brown versus board of education and with the hopes may have been. Absolutely. I I mean we when we think about 19 54, you know, brown versus brown versus the board of Education is is happening right at that time. And Yeah. Some of these women were going to school, particularly in they're the the women that I talked to in the south, you know, So in in New orleans and in Atlanta, some of these women were going to school at a time where racial segregation was legal, and they were going to school where they were entirely in school with black teachers and and black students. And you know, 1 1 participant, her her name, is Erin, goes here and Mitchell. She actually went by her real name and she wrote 2 of her own books, so everyone should go read, Erin Mitchell 2 books that she wrote about her own lives, her own memoirs. And she tells the story about how she went, she went to school in completely, racially segregated schools. In in the 19 fifties. And she... It it was not until she went to to college at Ba College, which is a historically black college in Atlanta. That the Women's college. It was not until she went to college that she met her first white person and actually, touched a white person, shook shook a white person hand. That's how racially segregated lives were, you know, at that time. And and we don't we don't often shed a light on that. I mean, we know that racial segregation was happening, but especially today, you know, I think about my own children. They... You know, I have to... I I tell them about this a lot, but they're not growing up in a time where they realize how racially segregated are country was and how it was legal to do that. So, yeah, These these were these were some serious times where where people were living and breathing in the exact times when we were contending with what it means to begin to integrate education, especially. Yeah. We've come some way between 19 54 and your book goes to 20 14, but... Boy. You know, and and people deny that there's systemic racism that it's built into this country. That's what I say to there. It's that's there. It is there. And as we noted in the beginning, the traditional way of thinking relies on a belief an individual power your book explores the empowering nature of. You say, quote, the lead finding is that black women have understood and do on understand that their liberation is tied to 1 another in a way that all of us could stand to learn from. And that all of us could stand to think about right now end of your quote. So is liberation best found through community. That... That's a pretty radical departure from the standard belief in bootstrap. Yeah. It sure is. And what's curious about it is that, yes. Liberation is absolutely. I believe after after writing this book and and collecting these oral histories, I believe that liberation is only found in community that we cannot be liberated individually in absence of community. So it's the idea that I can't be free unless you are free. And and what I learned most in this book is that I cannot be free if black women are not free. And that's something that we as a society really have to contend with, is that we we have treated liberation as if it is absent 1 another. Mh. And the reality is that we can only be liberated in community. That's what we're learning in this book. You know, I found that the... There were lots of ways to build community in this book. It could be informal, it could be through friendships. It could be formal in terms of, student groups, you know, black, black student unions, academic clubs that you know, emphasized, particular academic disciplines and in the inclusion of Black students in those disciplines. So Black accounting groups, black sociology groups. Things like that. So there's lots of different ways that community can be built, but it it seems to me things that liberation just does not happen. Mh when we start to think about only pulling up our own bootstrap and not looking around. And and realizing that someone else beside us, also needs to be pulled up. And the isolation that people feel from 1 another. If they don't. People are afraid of the other, and we know that fear often leads to hatred. If you don't understand, and to to to have that connection, without that, what... Liberation seems kind of it's missing a lot of things. I I appreciate what you're saying. The chosen we focuses on... Higher education. You suggest we need a rethinking of what we mean by educational success. Talk about that, please. Educational success has often been defined in an individualistic kind of way. So when we think about, a lot of research and education, for example talks about educational outcomes or educational success as individual graduation rates, You know, did you finish college? Did you get good grades? You know, what's the Gpa, create point average for a student? Did they make it through the class? Do they pass a class? So success has often been defined in those ways? And I'm not necessarily saying that those aren't markers of success, but what I am saying is that the pathway to... Have that that marker of success, meaning the pathway towards graduating and feeling satisfied and happy with the experience in some way is completely bound up in community. So while 1 person may get a good grade. The way that they did that probably isn't by themselves in a vacuum somewhere studying by themselves. Then they probably, you know, learned in community in a classroom. They learned from the faculty member, They may have even studied with other people. So so it's it's really thinking more clearly about the process of how we get to success. And that is not just individualistic. At least that's what I'm finding in this book. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I must say that it's... Such a big part of American tradition to be in education, competition, not cooperation, and it... I... From what I understand, the current research and current thinking is that a competition as not the best way to do it necessarily cooperation is not a bad thing. It can be a really good thing. What what did you learn from about the long term effects on black women from their college experiences. And I suppose it must have varied a lot between the historically black college and and universities and the, traditionally white. And colleges. What what what about the long term effects on black women from their college experiences of which you learned a lot? The community that started in college. So for example, a friendship group that started, you know, from a residence hall. In college, those communities persisted over time. So many of those friendships didn't didn't just stop at the end of college, some of these friendships blast lifelong. So give an example, There was AAI woman that in the book called south Janelle, and she went to the University of Iowa in the 19 sixties. And was a huge part of, building black activist movements and the Black Student Union that exists filled to this day. But she tells the story about moving into her residence hall and realizing that there's 400 students in the residence hall. And there were only 3 black women in the entire group of 400 students in that residence hall. So just to give an example of how isolating it could be to be a Black on campus. And she says, you know, we had to find each other. We, you know, we ate lunch together. We hung out together We were activists. Together. We we did the Black Union together. They they joined the same historically black so together. That set of relationships persisted over time. And I talked to Janelle when she was in her seventies, and they were still in touch they had they had elevated each other's careers and each other's lives through their lives throughout their lifetime. So it's not that the community necessarily was this very finite thing in in many instances, it persisted. Or if some of those relationships did come to an end, the many women would find other or communities that sort of mirrored that sense of community with other black women where where they were elevating each other. And I I do wonder, from my own college experience when, you know, there... There there were very few black people or I went to go college and which was a very long time ago. What about the the perception that might be had college from the white majority that black people are intentionally separating themselves. And and not connecting with the white white community. You must have learned a little bit about that kind of situation. Sure. You know, Beverly Tatum wrote this book, why all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria. Back in the the late 19 eighties. And and she was actually, the president of Sp College for a for a period of time and some of my... Participants in the book cited her as a, you know, really important, person in their lives in terms of a role model, as a scholar and and as a leader in higher education. And and so she's... She was starting to think about that, you know, way back in the 19 eighties. And, and has persisted to this day this question of what does it mean to integrate an institution And when we think about an institution, like my own institution university wisconsin Madison where a black student might flow to class and see maybe 1 other Black student or maybe no Black students. It doesn't seems threatening to me that in between classes, that student who just went to a chemistry class and saw no other black students. Nobody else who looked like them, that they might in between classes want to go to the student union and just sit for 5 minutes with people who looked like them. Like that doesn't feel surprising to me. And and and and it's not threatening at all all. It's it's actually a way of... Building oneself back up in a space that might be constantly kind of tearing a person down or potentially tearing a person down. So I think rather than seeing those ways in which black students particularly in a predominantly white setting, might gravitate towards 1 another. Instead of seeing it as a threat. I think it's better to see it as that's an oasis. That is a protected sacred space that black students are finding with 1 another, to build up 1 another, and then go out. And and any many of my participants talked about this, You know, I'll go to the union I'll go see black students in between classes, we'll sit together for a few minutes. We'll we'll give each other, you know, some love, give each other some just some nice community, and then I'll go back out on campus, and I'll do what I have to do the rest of the day where I'll be in a sea of whiteness, you, I had 1 participant who talked about her time at the University of Iowa in the 19 nineties as being a fly in a bucket of milk. And so if a student walking around campus and feeling as if they're the only 1 all the time. And then they want to go and spend an hour with other black students. That's that's important. That's not a that's not a threat. And we and we should be we should be supporting that. We should be elevating that, and we should be creating more, opportunities for student stuff. Find each other. Sure. It's it's appreciated ted. College life can be tough. I mean, for everybody, you know, and and having find some degree of sense of community, I would think would be really important. And for those who may have just tuned in. For Cohen here. The show is keeping democracy alive. We're talking about an important subject, I believe our guest today is Rachel Wink Wagner, who's... We're talking about her new book, the chosen way, black women's empowerment and higher education. She did a lot of research over a lot time on this, and it's it it's really... It's something we don't look at all that often. I wanna ask about institution. I mean, people... There are people who still don't believe that there's systemic racism that it's that it's just not as real as it is. In what ways does institutional racism continue to express itself at those using universities that are predominantly white institutions. And and with black women enrolling in college at higher rates than other groups since the 19 forties, how how have they experienced that bias in those P there's, well, how how long is your programming? But the this could be a long answer, But I'll I'll try to I'll try to be brief. So, you know, when we think about, many colleges and universities, For example, what we refer to as land grant institutions. There's, you know, 50 states, 50 land grant institutions where land was primarily, often taken from an indigenous populations and then given to the state to create colleges and universities. And so these these land grant institutions, these big research universities that every state has. Many of them were built out of exclusion. So they were built on stolen lands, and they were built, to having stolen land from indigenous populations and they were built in a way that legally segregated by race, meaning that they could decide and did to not admit women for a long time, women of any racial group. And they they could decide and did for a long time, to not admit black students. And so that's the institution, that's the institutional context that many of many students are going to college in where the institution itself baked right into the institutional fabric was exclusion it really was, these were institutions that really were built for only the success of white men. Right. And as other populations have finally been invited to come to those campuses a lot of times what happens and has happened is that the institution has sort of the actors, the administrators, the faculty, everybody at the institution has sat and said, okay, come on in, but you better change yourself to be part of us. We don't we don't. We don't want you to be you. We want you to be us. And so that's really been the sort of es ethos of a lot of colleges and universities for for generations where, you know, to be a, know, at University of Wisconsin and Madison, we might say people wanna be a badger because that's our our mascot here. You know, so to be a... Whatever your institutional symbol is to be part of the institution, there's this inherent idea that 1 should change who they are, and not be not be who they are. Unless they were a white man because these institutions were really only created by and for white men And so what I'm calling for here is an idea that if we're really going to include people. In these institutions. We have to be willing to change the institutional structure and contend with this history that has been baked right into it baked right into the pie, has been racially segregated and deeply exclusive. Yeah. It really definitely built in and it's a to, you us to say to everybody, this is how you need to be. You gotta, you know, not have your own identity. That's that's not particularly healthy and you discovered, a disturbing trend that many of the women who attended primarily white institutions experienced. Serious hell health serious health crises during their academic careers as while none of the women attending historically back colleges universities experience the same. Wow. Tell us about that, please. That was a surprising finding that, as I had been collecting these oral histories for, over a decade, and I started to reflect back and and do the analysis and and thinking to write the book, that's when I realized that there were, numerous women who attended predominantly wide institutions who had a health crisis somewhere during their time in college or almost immediately after college. And many of these health crises were either undefined, meaning for example, 1 woman had to stop out of, semester of college with symptoms like mono, you know, she couldn't get out of bed. She was really. Exhausted. She was just really worn down, had a really high fever, but they never figured out what it even was. She never got a diagnosis, what the actual conditional was, but she was so sick, she couldn't go to school for a whole semester. Other women for had conditions like cancer, meningitis, ut f and where they may have to have surgeries to remove the f for a painful condition with a lot of bleeding and which can lead to fatigue and and other conditions like anemia. So only women in predominantly white institutions were experiencing these conditions either during college or immediately after college And because of my own community of scholars around the country, I started thinking about this and inquiring it with my now collaborator, Bridget Ko at the university of Texas Austin. Mh. And she had been doing a lot of research on how racism gets under the skin. Meaning how does racial or gender stress that we experience into everyday life? How does that ultimately get under our skin create inflammation in the body and then potentially lead to really life threatening or, you know, serious health conditions. So she had been doing that kind of work, for a long long time. And now we're doing that work together in a project built directly out of some of the findings of this book to try to figure it out And so it's just a very curious finding in in my book that I hadn't set out to study health. And yet, I started to realize and have this ongoing question, which is can institutions make us sick. Because of racial gender stress. And the answer at least it's a little bit murky, but at least the partial answer in my book, is yes, these institutions can make us sick. And if we look at historically black colleges and universities there wasn't 1 participant who had this kind of health crisis. So there was something different happening in those institutions. That didn't lead to the same sort of racial and racial or gender stress that got in the body in the same sort of way Now, you know, we we haven't studied the genetics or the Dna or, you know, any of that, of course, you know, that wasn't part of my project. So It could be that people had a genetic pre pre condition to to get thicker or or something. But it is curious to me that not 1 person. From a historically block college or university had these health crises. That is very, very interesting. I'm and I'm sure it was surprising. And Which leads to 1 of your subjects said education and graduation from Sp college historically black college, I like what she said, what they're doing is sticking a titanium rod in your back. Say say a little bit more about that, please. That is a, you know, gives you... It gives you chills, kind kind of statement. Yeah. So this was a a participant who was talking about, you know, when you graduate from, from a selma College. She graduated from Sp college in the 19 eighties. Her name was Nina. And and she said, you know, you walk across the stage and they shake your hand and they give you here degree and they slap it a titanium rod in your back when they when they hit you on the back. And that rod is giving you the strength to leave that historically black college and be able to go back out into society where you're gonna encounter a lot of races and a lot of sexism of them, and you'll be able to handle it because you have that rod in your back. And so it is this real beautiful metaphor of the way that the historically black College and University from the beginning to the end is often building into these women, that you are great. You are excellent. You can go out and do anything you need to do, and we will give you the tools to do that. So the titanium rod it is like this metaphor of all the tools that she's taking with her from the historically black college. And going back out into society, And it's quite an answer to the to the previous idea too of, you know, why do black students hang out together on the only white campuses. It's a way that they're putting a titanium amr rod and each other. I mean, really, it's it's a way to get what you need and then and then go back out. Into this campus that might not always treat you very well. Mh. Go back out into society that might not always treat you very, but now you have the tools you need So it seems like having that sense of community, which is all too rare, actually builds individual strength. Having a sense of community. Who to thinking? Bert cohen here, the show is keeping democracy alive, our guest today, is author and professor Rachel at Rochelle Wink Wagner, whose new book is titled the chosen way, black women's empowerment in higher education, Wink Wagner is professor of educational leadership and policy analysis at the esteem University of Wisconsin in Madison. She's written a whole bunch of books, and this... The chosen way follows up on a previous book. The chosen me. And over the last 20 years, the field of urban education has changed dramatically. Since you entered and and joined the then majority of other white scholars. Over the decade, which it took you to write this book. That's some real perseverance by the way. Ideas about who should do research with black women has evolved. Those changes prompted you to... Contemplate the possibilities for how and even whether you're doing this work was appropriate. Say more about that evolution and how it affected you. That's right. That, you know, when I started doing this work, I didn't know it at the time, but of course, I was building on a hundred and 50 year tradition of. All these amazing black feminist theorists who had been had had been doing the thinking and the work, but many of them had been ignored. Even by me at the time because I, you know, we all have to, sometimes get through our education and then un learn some of the parts of our education that maybe weren't the right thing and then keep educating ourselves. So when I started, there was very few of us who are thinking about black women in higher education and what happens to black women in higher education. Maybe a handful of us many of my mentors, who who I really had the honor to work with, black women who were doing this work. But really, you know, we probably could have, maybe not even filled a restaurant. You know, We it is his it was really a handful of us doing this work at least in my discipline in higher education. As the years have progressed, and many of us have played a strong role in this. I I made a firm commitment when I graduated with my Phd to follow the idea of, w e deb boys to try to train, up a goal of, you know, he said a hundred, but I said, you know, a goal of maybe 50, other black Phds at the end of my career. So many of us started training training up, other black scholars and really trying to build, build up, a a group of other black scholars in in the world. And and over time over the last 20 years. Now there really are an amazing, black women scholars who are doing this work and who are telling the stories of of black women, their own stories in a way that wasn't entirely, happening at quite the level that it is now. And over time, a lot of questions have risen about you know, who should and could do work across racial lines. And and I have had to contend with that in my own work and and really think serious about, do I do Solo author, you know, a project, that, is about and with black women, or do I not do that? And and the truth is that the bulk of my work now aside from this book, I almost always am, collaborating and c cooperating with plaque women because 1 of the things I learned from this project is that we we really are never doing anything in absence of 1 another and if collective liberation, black women understand that their liberation is tied to 1 another, and I need to I need to be a part of that too. So it has changed the way that I do this this work. You know, I was really far into this book when I was, by the time I started asking these questions. And so I went forward with my name on the book, but we are writing a second book with my, gatekeepers from the projects from other data that's not in this book that won't have me as the first author. And so it's... I I... The way that I have done the work has really changed over over the last 20 years and in large part, because of the lessons I've learned in this book. Fascinating. And I Am certainly as as you could probably guess by now, I'm, neither a black nor or a woman. And you believe that the liberation of black women while being an end in itself is also important and is a means to wider liberation, like for all of us. How so? Absolutely. If we think about the way that... My liberation is tied to your liberation. And what black women in this book are teaching all of us, which is that their liberation is tied to 1 another their liberation is also tied to me, it's also tied to you. And so if we think about the freedom of black women, we think about the true inclusion of black women, the elevation of black women. We can use black women, as a guide as a proxy for ways to support everybody because all of our liberation is bound to 1 another And so if we take black women who are often marginalized and underrepresented in society and also in higher education. If we take them as a guide and we decide we are going to une unequivocally support black women, we are going to elevate black women. In turn, given the idea that we are all bound up together Yeah in our own fight for liberation. Given that idea, if we support black women and we elevate black women, we will elevate everyone. And I have to tell you I I can think over my years of of meeting people. There have been some white men, I'd say all men who have frankly been racist and because they didn't know any black people. They didn't mean any black people. But when they got to know black people. They got liberated themselves from this oppressive belief. So it's it's... I I totally agree with you. And although the context that... Require the civil rights movement to exist. It was... You know, We gotta remember the context of the fifties and sixties. It was pre oppression stress violent racism. It also, this civil rights movement provided support and purpose to some of your subject. Is there any indication that today's black lives matter activities on campus may serve a similar function. Don't I think so. I think that anytime somebody joins in an effort towards liberation for a population of people that have been excluded or subjected to discrimination or or worse, you know, even, lie having their lives threatened, for example. Anytime somebody joins in a in a fight for collective liberation in in a fight for Freedom. They are simultaneously working for freedom for others, but also they will be liberating and experiencing freedom for themselves. And the community that they build in these in these efforts, often persist over time in various ways. You know, what I saw from people who are involved in the civil rights movement who were in this book, is that their involvement in activists and civil rights efforts during colon it's Often transcend college, meaning that it influenced what they became in their in their career, Who they became as an adult, you know, so they... Some of them became, for example, civil rights attorneys, or they became medical doctors to, fight what they saw as medical racism that, you know, people were experiencing where they want being treated right by doctors, or they became professors or they became teachers because they had fought for, liberation in the classroom and on campus. And so, a lot of times, the efforts that they were making in activism we're we're teaching them, other things that were, transferable to their to their longer lives. Mh. And and the black lives matter movement it continues and is as necessary in my opinion as the old civil rights movement. What... Who is the intended audience for your book the chosen we? And what do you hope readers will take away from reading it? Well, I think everyone should read this book. Of course. Of course. And not just because I wrote it But because at the heart of this book, it's centering the lives and stories that of black women and the wisdom. Of black women over a 60 year time period. So there's so much for people to learn about their own journey to freedom and liberation, from this book. It's a it's actually a really happy story in a lot of ways. There's a there's a lot of... There's a lot of beauty in in these communities that just it can really, you know, fill our hearts at a time when we really need it because there's There's there's a lot of darkness in our world right now. And so this is a book that focuses on the light, you know, amidst all the darkness in the world. The women in this book are finding light in 1 another. And that's something that I think everyone should read. But I will say that, you know, as I was writing this book, the 1 audience that I very much want to feel seen. And heard steal themselves in the book, is black women. And as long as I've met that goal, then I think everyone else should read it to. But III do think, you know, my project in my career and my research, I say this to my research team all the time, you know, we are in the business of unequivocally elevating black women because black women, are the source of liberation for everyone. And if we liberate and support black women, we support everyone. These are things I say all the time, And and so, I want black women to see themselves in the book first and foremost, but I want everyone to read it. It... I must say It sounds like you feel pretty good about this book. The book is titled the chosen we, and it's subtitle black women's empowerment in higher education, and who is the publisher? For I I don't think I picked up on that. State University of New York Press, Sun Press. U. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. And very good stuff and rather hopeful for everybody. I must say. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to speak with you. If you enjoyed that discussion, don't miss a single show. Subscribe. It's all free. And if you find the information valuable, you... Friends probably do too. Please ask them to also subscribe. It's on apple, Spotify. Friends Progressive a radio network, stitch I heart radio, and of course, the website keeping democracy alive dot com. Thanks very much.