How do you help someone tell their spouse that they have secretly been viewing pornography? Wow. These aren't tough situations Thankfully, 1 of my favorite and most effective therapist, Jeff S put together a presentation about disclosing Betrayal. Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery and repentance so much more difficult if it isn't handled correctly. This isn't a rip the band aid off quickly type of situation. With a better understanding of the betrayal, church leaders can be a strong resource. In helping couples navigate the awful effects of pornography usage. You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no cost in the liberating saints virtual library. Simply go to leading saints dot org slash 14, and you can sign up for 14 days of free access to Jeff's presentation and the entire library. It's 1 of my favorite interviews. Hey, if you're a newbie leading Saints is important that you know what is this leading Saint thing, well, leading Saints as a non nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter saints, be better prepared to lead. And the way we do that is through content creation, so we have this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We have virtual conferences, so much more. At articles on our website. I mean, I could go on and all. Right? And we encourage you to, jump in, check out leading saints go to the search bar at leading saints dot org and type in some topics and see what pops up. We're just glad you're here to join us. Nate and Marla Christians, welcome to the leading scenes podcast. Thanks for evidence. Yeah. Thanks, Kurt. Now we were together... I don't know a few weeks ago, months ago in Sacramento area where I served my mission, and I had the opportunity give fireside side in the area and you to work got enough to be there. You're also... You work with Tony Over bay. Right? Is that... Like how do you define your professional relationship with Tony over. Yeah. Well, that's important. I feel like a little bit of a ne baby. Are you familiar with that term? I'm not. No. Okay. So ne is favor given The people that know people, It's actually like a family thing. Yeah. So Tony's is my boss. And obviously, you know Tony very well. And Tony's also Marla boss. As of resale. So I'm mortgage for him for 3 years and huge started 3 3 months ago. Yeah. So are you both therapists? Oh, I didn't realize that more. Okay. Cool. Great. Yep. And you're married. That's why you have the same last name. Yeah. Yes. That's cool. Yeah. Awesome. So anyway, so we were there because Tony said, hey, Kurt coming, and actually, I think we got we may have gotten actually, our steak was invited as well. So actually that was there too. But Yeah. Tony talks... There's was a couple steaks there. At. Yeah. A lot. And so he's like, should come... Great. So we're like, okay. And you gave an awesome presentation. Well, thank. I appreciate that. Yeah. It was nice amazing. So you have a unique story which will maybe start with it get into, but you are, who which led you to this path of becoming a therapist, and you... How long you're celebrating an anniversary at the time of this recording. Not not like, today today. But I wouldn't make them coming of the studio on there. Anyway. It's good for you. How many years have you been married now. We've 5 5 years now. So second marriage... Yes. For both of you. Mh. And that plays in the story a little bit. But and then it led you both to this world of the being a therapist. Right? Absolutely. Yep. Cool. So where's a good jumping off point for your story? You know, where where should we go first? So I was probably the stereotypical, like, good kit growing up in the church. And so I made it to my mission with no problems and never had to see the bishop for anything other than, like, birthday interviews and stuff like that. So I felt like I was, like, on the right track and won an admission, and it was difficult. I did have some pretty gnarly mental health issues. So After my mission, I was diagnosed with some mental health conditions, depression, anxiety, Adhd a little bit later. And where did you go to your mission? I served in Michigan? Okay. I mean, it was amazing and met some amazing people and all sorts of stuff. And that was the nature of the mission was sort of brought these mental health concerns to the surface or... No. They were there before. K. And then it kind of exacerbated on the mission. Well, it was kind of ups and downs, which you know, a lot of missions are. I think I was I was more so. If if the mission was going pretty well, then I was doing a little bit better. But missions don't always go. So, I noticed there's a lot of bad days. And not that the day was bad, but, you know, the way hard. Yeah. Slow. Nothing's happening. Or right? Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, so I got back from mission, still had the same mental health concerns, and the 1 thing that's really nice about emissions is the structure. Yeah. So they just have this amazing structure built around you. And it keeps you very busy and keeps your mind pretty focused, and then I get home. And there's no structure and I could start to kind of lose my good missionary habits and not scriptures and praying as much and all that stuff. And the mental health stuff really got bad. And it did not take long before 1 night, I was sitting on a computer and basically, doing some homework. I was going to community college at the time, and just all sorts of of porn material popped up on the computer was just, like, tons of images coming out of nowhere. And now this time where others around you, like your family, your friends noticing these health or mental health concerns or? No. I was pretty it about them? I think if you were around me enough? I mean, I had some companions and maybe all my companions probably could tell If they're all listening. I got This guy's gotta tough me. Which, you know, I'd certainly feel bad about maybe in the the spirit of the 12 step Arp, which we'll talk about a little bit later, but step 9, reconciliation. I can apologize to those people who are not the best companion. And anyway, So, basically, it... Nobody was around. It was late at night. And I think I dodged that 1 pretty well. Turn off the computer went to bed, and a few nights later, it happened again. And that was kind of my descent into addictive behaviors. Now let me be clear as a clinician, we start to kind of identify or categorize these things a little bit better. It took a while to descend into what I would consider, which for me, I generally look at as as just kind of daily use. And and so bad addiction unfortunately led to other addictions, so I had some difficulty with not just that 1. I as I got deeper and deeper into these things. I started to pull back a little bit from the church. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance from, like, I'm like, oh, I'm trying to live this amazing gospel, but I'm not doing very well in this 1 area, and there was a lot of shame. And so I was like, I just don't feel worthy to be there. You know, everybody else is doing so great and I'm not all these... Things are here to step back. Yeah Yeah. Mh. And so I've found myself after a little while starting to drink. That was a shorter I put it in the addiction category is shorter but more intense part of my life for a few years, the other addiction that I ended up developing that was pretty rough was gambling. And so definitely, they... The gambling and the pornography really contributed to my eventual divorce, and they they wrecked a lot of relationships So when did you get married in the that after your mission soon thereafter? Or probably... It was not... Maybe 24? Okay. So it's been a few years. Was this... You know, when you talked about this first engagement with pornography. Was this after your marriage or No. It was before. Okay. It was before. And I told myself a story, and I... We all do it. Right? Our brain love stories. And I, you know, if I just get married, it'll will be fine. I mean, yeah. Of course, not. So, anyway, so that'll all kind of really derailed me. I ended up because of my addictive issues, ended up in a church court at the state level And back then they were pretty wild. Hey while is not the best word, but I've been some wild ones once for sure. But yeah yeah. The whole whole council's there. The hands there and they're like, okay. Well, there's a lot of people and you're kinda land it all out. And and, I mean, they were... The people that were there were very loving and I felt like, they supported me as much that as they could. I didn't feel like any of them. Did anything negative? I know some people talk about, like, pretty negative experiences. Didn't feel like I had that really negative experience, but I was dis fellowship and that led from you basically not having... Not being full fellowship for 7 years. Won't be that long to come back. And, what's the status your marriage through all this? Is is your wife responding to the betrayal of that? Or Well, she didn't like it, she wasn't active. So like... So when you stood that step back from the church, she kinda of went with you that Yeah. It wasn't necessarily a problem for her. In fact when we ended up divorcing, she left the church complete. Okay. I don't know exactly where she's at. She sometimes talks to God talks about her relationship with gods. So that's her journey, and we have 2 kids together, so we're back and forth with the kids and so she's trying to work through things. Certainly, I feel... I... I do for so some guilt about my role in that, I was not a good husband, and and I can't go back and change that. I'm trying to be a better person now and do what I can to make up for that. So that all happened. Unfortunately, after she and I divorced, I had kind of another serious relapse ended up dis fell shipped again this time for, like, 3 years. Even when I was back in the church, I was never worthy for a temple. So you you were dis fellowship within then kinda out for 7 years and then back in, but then you had a relapse and, like yeah other. But back in a little. Like, I wouldn't say I was super Least the paperwork showed that. Yeah. Yeah. And more issues, similar types of thing just fell again, and then that was a series of years. And then they've tail end of that is when she and I met. Alright. So let's go the tomorrow story. Where you wanna start with your story and we'll bring it up to the same pace? Yeah. So lightning nate and kind of born in the covenant to a large family, kind of lower Sc ses, or, like, soc economic Mh. Lower. My father worked for the church. And so, you know, growing up in that. It was noon. Were you here in Utah? Or... No. I was in California So they move from La up to Northern California just to escape the bustle kind of thing. 1 of 7 kids. You know, So larger family and I was probably more like a perfection kind of child, you know, first girl, 2 older brothers, sandwiched between boys you know, trying to find my space. So that led to me just being, like, really, you know, I gotta be the best. You know, I wanna be perfect, and and I wanna achieve, high achieve. Loved school loved and learning. So it all points, like, kinda like nate, like, it never went to the bishop for anything, you know, just kind of stayed on the straighten the mirror. And this is interesting. I just wanna highlight this. Yeah. And I know no. I know you... It with Hindsight, you you know you know better what up, But it's interesting. And and I would put mine in that itself in that category even though I have some bishop appointments and... But it's almost like this. I did it. Like, I got through high school. I got them a mission without having to repent. Isn't this zoom and we're like, boy, you understand the. Right? So I just appreciate, like, we're just focusing on that component it get... They could sometimes come into our culture Right Oh, definitely. Many times ago. Yeah And in fact, like, by time I was 20 a half, I was like, I'm a mormon nun. Like, I'm not married. Like, everybody else was married. And then, like, what am I gonna do? And so I got married about 20 and a half, and it I thought about a mission, but I, like I wanna wait, you know, and he was, like I wanna wait for you. So, you know, I was like, okay. Well, I need to start this family and do this. In hindsight, I probably should've have worked on me. Mh. I probably should've have been more differentiated and known who I really was. At that point. And we got married, and we were married for 20 years. I was a stay at home mom. We had 4 kids, just kinda humming along, you know, and then the marriage kinda fell apart. And for about 10 years, we worked on this marriage. We worked at it really hard for about 5 years and got therapy and stuff, and, you know, me working through, like, my feelings. Of pain before what was going on in the marriage, and it ended and removed and or all of this just chaos coming out of it. At the time my oldest was a high school, and my youngest was 10, I think. And so for me I was like, okay, What am Gonna do? You know, I've been stay at home on for 20 years. Don't have my education. I didn't graduate from college, and I had thought, you know, I'm gonna go back to college. I'm gonna do this. I want a career. I don't want a job. Mh. I wanna show my kids that this is important that, you know, I can do this. So I went back to school, move my family, like, 400 miles and wow school and I'll took all the kids with me, you know, it's at this point, my oldest is going to Be a you and and I've got 3 kids, and, you know, I'm living at the poverty line again just to make it through. And I got through and finished my degree in 2 years. And I was gonna go and do speech therapy. Mh. And I was excited about that because it was a career that I could be at home for the kids, still, but, you know, still make. Decent money and and things like that. And, you know, it I was interesting because I started dating again, and that's a wild topic in itself. Ding bias exactly. Wow. But we met on mutual. In fact, like, you saw me in a couple different platforms and I think I just, mutual better. It's like God is Nate. Here she is. Just yeah wife. You know... I was talking to him about it and I'm like I remember... Like, I can vividly remember seeing his profile and thinking. Oh, like, I don't know. Like... And, you know, thinking well close. Why was? He was close, but he was really honest. In his profile. I was like, I have mental health issues. I'm not active in the church right now, You know, but I'm looking for friends, and I'm just looking for this, and I thought, you know, I could do a friend. Cool. You know, it may not ever go anywhere, but, like, looks like he needs a friend started in the friends out. Okay. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we started just talking, you know, and having some really interesting conversations, you know, and he was still, like, in like, the tell of his addiction. And so he was a lot darker. You know, as far as like, so I'm like all, sunshine and Lollipop pops, and he's, like, can't whatever. You know, God doesn't love me. You know And I'm like. He does. Like, you just need to, like, feel in, tap into it. You know? And he's like, oh, Like, I don't have to talk to you, you know? But we worked through it. You know, and there were times that he would just go distant, and I'd, like, reach out after a couple months and be like, are you alive? You know? Things like that. And I knew that, like, he was really dealing with some, like, serious mental health issues and my mother had had mental health issues growing up. So I I knew kind of what that was like. To have, like, deep depression. Mh. And maybe not get out of bed. And and things like that. So I think I had a lot of compassion for maybe just, like, there's an opportunity to be a friend here for him. So that was interesting, and then we dated... We didn't even really day. You know, he was like, I gotta I get myself back into church. You're like, woman I wanna marry, but like, I'm not in a place, and I wanted a temple marriage, you know? And he was, like, I've gotta get straight and so I was, like, dating other people in the meantime. And whatever or not. And then there was a point where he was just, like, I gotta have this woman. I gotta do this. So I'll let you... Yeah. Anything you feel in there during of the dating... That didn't happen that day. No. It goes. Well, you know, the thing that always struck me about Marla is how, like, forgiving and loving she was, you know, coming having previously been married and having a marriage for 20 years that, you know, didn't work out, but she still was able to connect with God. And I was living in a pretty dark place. I don't know how maybe maybe I could describe my experience with, like, depression like this. If you can, like, take your whatever your worst day is in the last year, and imagine like, living that day every day. And and that was kind of like my experience. And sometimes it wasn't even the the day was terrible, but it just for whatever reason just felt bad. And so I couldn't imagine a loving god that could, like, like, give me that, and I hadn't really thought too dig deeply about it. Even during all this time, I I didn't necessarily question my testimony. I've always had a... At least since, like, maybe 14, I felt like, there... I believe that there was a god, and I believed in Jesus Christ and and that was kind of a basis. But I also had this story that I told myself again back these stories that we tell ourselves. That I was like, somehow like, out of the plan. Like I ejected myself from the plan, and I was in no man's land and and like, they thought it all. Somehow I've been forgotten about. Mh. They're like, oh, shoot. There's this... What are doing this guy over here. So, you know, that kind of where I was at. So to hear from her, like, hey, God, loves you and this and that. I like, III mean, I just couldn't feel it. I had a close friend I was talking to yesterday. It's going through some tough times, and, you know, he mentioned he's, like, you know, when you can't... When you're just not feeling well, like, your mental health is really bad. It's really hard to fill the spirit. And it was a good reminder because I felt the same way. It's really hard to feel the spirit in these really dark days, and you might feel it from time to time. You go to a service project and feel good about what you're doing. But then the minute you exit out of that, you're back to This like, really difficult to manage brain that's so full of shame and, you know, all of the human, You know, that creates challenges for us and Yeah. So... So when you met Marlon, and you're sort of dating or friends at first and then started dating, you're still sort of grappling with your addiction. And at this point, is it primarily just with struggles with pornography or is... Mostly... I mean, the tail end of gambling for me was actually more, like, these things you get at the gas station, like, these, like, super auto things or whatever, and I got to point Was like, okay. That's... I'm keeping this alive through that. So Like, okay. No more. But, you know, it wasn't necessarily the the trips to the casino or, you know, the different things that people might do. But the pornography was deep see it. I mean, is a 20 year compulsive behavior. Sometimes full on full blown addiction, and other times, it's you know, you're doing okay from day to day and and then it's relapse and it's like, okay. Why why even try? I mean, all of that, those negative emotions about you know, I I just... I can't fix this. And, of course, I was doing it all wrong. I got myself in this mess so I should get myself out was where my brain was at and of course not. You know, the savior heals us. Yeah. Like, I needed Jesus Christ, but I just... It was almost like I felt like I didn't deserve Jesus christ. And I... I mean, it's true. I didn't feel like I deserved it. Yeah. So and so, you're... Now you're engaging with Marla, and you're wanting to come out of this the slump for this addiction? And so where do you begin to to climb up? So I go and I meet with my bishop. And start to try to, like, kind of work things out. I was aware that she wanted a temple marriage. I had never been sealed before 4. And because of my status with, you know, during the time when I was married in my ex. We never made to the temple. And so for me, a temple marriage seemed like the right thing to do. And so I started working with my bishop, and, you know, he was incredible. He was doing the same kinds of things that Marla was doing. Like helping me feel the love of the savior, which I couldn't I just couldn't connect with. But he would tell me, like, you know, God loves you. Jesus Christ loves you. And, like things that that just didn't quite ring true for so much of my life. And so that started me kind of back to getting back into fell. When we made the decision to get married, we had a few hurdles. And so we we decided on a date, which this is a bad... I a bad memory, and I will own that. So I it's like well, what can we do to make this easy and, a Saturday and the month of April happened to be the twentieth. So we're like hey. Look 20. And I was like, okay, I can remember Okay. So anyway, we had some pretty significant hurdles to get through. First off was she had 10 temple. Cancellation. She had to get. So what happened with that Well, I went to, like, my saint president and my bishop and, you know, wanted to get this done and they explained the process to me and, you know, and I had a couple of them. Just say look, like, this happens or sometimes it doesn't happen. You, so we can't say that this is the thing that's gonna happen for you. You know, you gotta turn your paperwork in and just see, but sometimes it takes a while. You know, you can't expect it to, like, just happen, and I was like, okay. So I was a little discouraged and thinking, oh, I don't know if this is gonna work. So I wrote my paperwork out and and even just that process is, it was interesting to just look at the journey that I had been on up to that point. Turn the papers in and in a matter of a, like, couple weeks. We got... I got a letter back. And I was, like, blown away, and I sat down and 1 of, mistake president was, like, I haven't ever seen this. Like, that's quick. Like, I've had other people who actually have, like, recently applied and been declined For whatever reason. And like this a miracle was kind of like this needs to happen. And it needs to happen in, like, a timely kind of manner and not drawn out. Like, you know, we were kinda like, oh, maybe just wait, like, 6 more months a year, you know, or whatever. But there was almost a sense of urgency that that it needed to go forward. Yeah. So they have it on Marla side. My side there was also something unexpected. I went to see the bishop, and, you know, they... When you get this fellowship, or there's some kind of discipline. There's kind of a letter and, you know, the expectations of what you need to do to get back. We go through. I hadn't met them. And I was several months away from meeting them. And he's sitting there, and I think he was looking up the ceiling and he's, like, I just feel like you really need this. He said let's meet next week. So I come back and we meet... We... He had spoken with the sick president and kinda told him what was going on and what he was feeling, and the sick president said, well you know, if that's what you feel like it needs to happen. So I got reinstated even before meeting all of, you know, what was supposed to happen. And that that was not what happened for me. The first time, and I wasn't expecting that, but that felt like such a blessing, and it started to kind of, like, turn that story a little bit. You know, god had forgotten about me. Like, I just don't know if, you know, Jesus loves you really that much. And and so for me that was significant moment. I will never forget that bishop. I will never fit the... Forget that experience. I know that that sometimes we don't get the miracle. And maybe most of the times we don't get the miracle, which is maybe why when we do get the miracle, it makes it all all the better, but that felt miraculous for me. Yeah. Yeah. So does back as far as looking at more of like the dynamics that are happening on from here... Let's put your therapist hats on for a minute. Like, anything any principle to highlight in this and in their process back, it would be helpful for church leaders to understand that that it's going on. I mean, if we really connect to the stuff around addiction. For me, the principle that that matters more so than any is connecting these people that are struggling. With this idea or this notion that only Christ can heal. Mh. And, like, helping them along, like, that path because I just was not willing to give that until I started to feel, like Christ really loved me. And for whatever reason, you know, like, the story that I had in my mind just... I couldn't quite wrap my brain around all the experiences that I had all the mental health issues that I had all of the the problems that I created, some I created, you know, myself, some were other people. I just couldn't quite grasp a story where God loved me and allowed me to go through these things. Mh. And so helping these people with that that essentially, that belief system, God does love you. God is not forgotten about you. Jesus Christ sacrifice. Will get you where you want to go, but you have to let go and you have to give to him. And so I don't remember. I was trying to remember if in any of my you know, the letter they sent if they recommended, I go to Arp. Mh. But in hindsight, if that had not happened, I wish it had. Whether or not I would have gone, I don't know. I would sometimes go to Arp meetings, but I okay. I struggled. So throughout this... You're... It's not really being emphasized in your recovery as far as you're going to the addiction recovery program and those things. And and you... You're saying you wish maybe was put out there a little bit earlier. Yeah. I mean, now... So my memory is not the best. So this... In Hindsight 20 20. Right. Am I am I creating a here, maybe everybody was saying it. Mike was like, what is the I don't wanna go? Yeah. So maybe the had truth that's... I wish I'd had been more open to it. Can't imagine he it wasn't brought up from time to time. But maybe, you know, on the leadership side and I and leaders are so busy and I'm so grateful for everything that they do. And I'm not trying to criticize, like, their own. We're just making observations probably help to others. And the other thing I wanna emphasize here. This is a concept that my friend and therapist, Steven Chi talks about is like, the leader's role, like, the spiritual leaders role is just a beyond the hope train. Right? Yeah. Jesus loves you. You're worth it. He'll heal you. Right? You don't need to be, like, okay. How do I fix a dick. Like, that's like, way too much for a bishop to put on his shoulders or, you know, try and figure out. And and that's where sometimes they stray into this probation officer mode of, like, well, another 4 weeks or another month. Let's see how you're doing. It's like, no. Just drive the hope train. Right? Right? The the Jesus train, He'll. Yeah. He's coming for you. Right? Yeah. No. Love really. I love that. And so just in the last few years, they made me the, facilitator. Of or offer me the the option of working as the facilitator and the Rp group for the stake. And, it's been amazing for me. I have finally, like, caught the vision of Arp. She actually caught it before I did because she was going to meetings in first marriage. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Our state had, like, a support group for women with pornography issues. And while my... Women women with... That we're still, yes. Exactly. Thank you. And while my partner didn't have an issue, I wanted some connection, and I'm... Oh, interested. You know, some support in this. Because what I was dealing with nobody knew. It was kept very secret. And in a lot of ways, it was very alien meeting, So I'm sitting at church crying, and nobody's annoying why crying, and my colleagues kinda dried up. And I was like, you know, I can't handle anymore, but nobody knew why. And so for me, I I felt like I needed support. And so they mentioned the group and and they were like, yeah come on in. And for me, at that time, they didn't have, like, the companion support piece to the Erp, so we literally worked the 12 step program for Arp. But for me, catching that vision of, like, man as much as, like, maybe my partner's causing the chaos here. I need to work on me. Mh. Like, I need a relationship with Jesus Christ to get through this. Yeah. Otherwise, I'm gonna fray apart. Yeah. And it's gonna lead me somewhere deep. So let me... Let me ask, like, because oftentimes the Arp program is framed is, like, this is for addicts, you know, that's their support and not necessarily that'll fix them like, right away, but it's, like this is a good, like, curriculum fresh to go through it. There's the the companionship curriculum or course or path, which I think this is really good to emphasize that it's not about how do you deal with your Right. Husband or spouse who's who's struggling as an magic? It's... Just... How do I take on life with all these these dynamics? Yeah. The companionship piece is really great. It's about, like, supporting myself? Like, how do I nurture myself? While, there's chaos constantly around me? You know, I can't be focused on them? I have focus on me. Mh. And support me. But the Arp program, like, Always telling Nate this, you know, and he's, like, oh my gosh. And I'm like, I wish that my biggest wish is that that everybody would do this program. Yeah. Like, the attic portion we've be removed. Yeah. You know, this is a program. It's now call, like, healing through... Healing through the this? I think. And I'm like, who does send me that? Right. Like, that's amazing. And as I sat there, I was, like, I need this every day. Like, I'm an addict. I'm an addict of my phone. I'm an addict to food. I'm an addict to everything in life. Everything in life is positioned to take me away from nurturing a relationship with my savior. K. And so I need this. The first step is I can't handle my life. Like, my life is out of control. You know, who doesn't feel that every day all the time. Just any person. Right. You know? And so I think we all need this on some level. It's a great program. Yeah. It's not just for. Right? This 1 of them the points on your no here. And this is... I just wanna emphasize this more of, like... Because going back to this that little highlighted me earlier where growing up a zoo we feel like, we're winning if we're not in the bishop office. And as adults, we feel like, well, I mean, I'm mean Yeah Life is crazy, but, I mean, I'm good. Right. Even in this words, I'm fine. Right. I mean, I'm going to church. I got my temporary recommend. I'm fine. Right? And the dangers that we then slip into this mode. Like, well, I believe in the savior, but, I mean... And I know in the attorneys, I need them, but today, I'm fine. I don't need him today. And it's like, whoa. Like, Red flag red flag. Right? And so I love this that... Because it's almost framing the addiction recovery program is the the shame recovery program because it's not that there was this thing called addiction that you were dealing with in your marriage, but you were dealing with personal shame of I'm alone I'm the only person dealing with this least that's what you I thought. Right? I need community a place to go Yeah. To work on me. Right. And this is a perfect structure to do that. Absolutely. And so as I worked those steps, it was, like, this is what I need. Mh. You know, I don't need... I mean, there were other things I needed it I need a good therapist at the time, that I didn't have. But I needed the savior to step in and to soothe and comfort me. Yeah. And show me my weakness and what I could do. Let me ask you about that. Like, as you're going to these Meetings, where there are other women there who have the spouse that's dealing with the addiction. Right? That that's stigma. Was it awkward at times where you're like, well, it's not my husband or or... I mean, did that even come up or how did you navigate that as someone... Yeah. So it's a great question the meetings are set up so that you don't talk about, like, what your spouse is do doing. So, like, I'm sitting with, like, 9 or 10 of their ladies, and I don't know what they're dealing with. And we didn't talk about that. We talked about the steps. And so the focus is on the savior. It's not about, like, what drama I'm having that week. And, you know, how I'm feeling or whatever or not. It's about man, this was a hard week. And as I worked at this step, I saw this. Mh cool. Yeah. I saw more hope. I could see this or I need more of this. And so I was grateful for this reminder that this is what I need that I need reconciliation or that I need forgiveness and these things. Yeah. So it... It's a good reminder. So it was always positive focused. It wasn't talking about the negative stuff. Oftentimes you have so much negative when you're dealing with somebody who has an addiction that, you know, you need those positive moments. That's really good. And I wanna Highlight that. This... Again, this is why I really encourage leaders and really everybody, but, you know, in the context of leadership, it took me... I was thinking think I was my fourth year is bishop before I actually went to an like you went. They experienced it, like, oh with somebody. Right? That's awesome. And and experienced it understood the dynamics. And this is why Like, I think most people make the assumption like, you walk in. Yeah. Even though it's a very welcoming in place, you're sort of labeled and attic or or your marriage is broken or And so then you have to sit there and be like, yeah, you know, let me tell you about my husband or or let me tell you that my slip up this week. It wouldn't... It went in a reality, nobody really knows if you are an addict or unless you share, maybe you might share something that that leads to that, But I think this is, again, so encouraging for people least go experience it. Mh. And then know that, like, there could be a person who qualifies completely for a temple recommend. Yeah. But it's having a really tough week and they can go to this group and just find some redemption in there, some peace. And I will do that with Nate. Like, Will tag along sometimes to go to the group. Yeah. And I always walk away in and I'm like, man, I have never been to a meeting that I don't feel the spirit. Yeah. Like, it's very humbling to sit there and to have everybody sitting there saying I need the savior. Like, there are times that I can go to church and sometimes it's my fault, but not feel that where people are saying I need the savior. But tap everybody in the room say, I need the savior, and this is how I feel him in my life this week. Yeah. I think is really powerful. And so I appreciate that. You know, I'm always like, that's my pick up. You know, like, right in the middle of the week that I need for that. So I think it's a wonderful program. I'm like, typically just go. You know? Yeah. But you do. You hear people say, oh, I'm I'm going... You know, she go to the Meeting and it's like, oh, did you see so in so car. Like, parked out front. You know, I wonder what their advice is. Let's talk about that. And that's not how it should be. You know, it really should be wow. Look at that person. They're parked there, and they're learning more about the savior. Yeah. Almost like when you see your car parked in the temple parking lot. Yeah. I like To the temple Yeah. Right. You right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not how we're framing it. You know, you sometimes I asked, like, people I know they're older and they're like, oh, rejection program. I'm like, we don't talk about that. You know what? I'm like, oh, but we should. This is great. We all need it. Yeah. You know, That's really good. Alright. We're... Where do you wanna jump up from here and go back to your narrative this the principal? What What mind? I mean, I think this idea that the Arp is... For everyone and not just for addicts is a pretty large and and important concept. So I'm going to try to tie this to a mental health concept and hopefully, it it makes sense for people. 1 of the things that is helpful to recognize is the concept of c dependence. Code dependence is essentially when someone is excessively leaning on someone else for emotional support. So they're struggling to manage themselves. The Manual actually specifically identifies c dependence as 1 of the types of people that could benefit from that meeting. And so I really have been doing a lot of thinking about kind of this concept. So to take kind of a step back from code dependence and then go forward. If you look at En, so I had on my mission, we had to read beware of pride. So we had to read that every week. So right, like, a hundred times or something like that in my mission. And so... A good 1. Yeah. It is. It is. Unfortunately, I didn't quite catch the message back because split up addiction. If you were put it read it 1 more time me. Come on. So anyway, he talks about En as kind of, like, opposition to or hostility towards. And when we look at, say, Genesis chapter 3. I'm not just... Like, a script so forgive me for not being the best at all of this. So God is is in the garden with Adam and Eve and luc there, and he tells Loose further that he's gonna put en in the seat of the woman, and that is going to be a protection, for humans from Satan. So it's opposition towards Satan. Then you go to Romans 8 and Romans 8 talks about how that en of or opposition to God is the Cardinal mind. And so what ends up happening apparently is God put something in us that's intended to be protective. So en or opposition to Satan protects us. But Satan doing his thing, twist things. U. And he can cause us to have an opposition or toward God. Pride. And so I think that we are imbued with a lot of, like, things are intended to be helpful for us in this life they just get a little twisted and then they become harmful. Yeah. C dependence I look at in a similar way. And, hopefully, the this connection makes sense. The way that I would look... The opposite of code dependence is like en measurement. So we have emotional and measurement between 2 people. And I think I think that we are imbued with a desire to be en mesh, but it's not supposed to be towards. Other people. Mh. I think we're supposed to be en mesh with Christ. Mh. We are supposed to be yoke with Christ. Is it fair enough to say, you know, Arp is a meeting where we can come there, it can be like, you know what? I'm hurt by what my spouse did. I'm feeling en mesh. So what he does really reflects badly on me. That's the kind of in mesh c dependent mind thinks. Can we get to a place where we are en mesh or yoke with Christ, and we can stand with him? And say, this is a person that's struggling. Yes, I'm hurt. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to kinda of work through some of the stuff. But right now, I will try to offer compassion and be on the side of Christ. And I think that that's 1 of the great benefits here is it teaches us principles that allows us to become c dependent or en mesh with Christ and not on other people. We do sometimes in our relationship need support and we serve 1 another. That's a natural part of this code dependencies is essentially, it's an all the time kind of thing, and it keeps us. Just dependent because we're not learning to manage ourself. Yeah. And when we're code dependent with Christ, he's gonna expect us to learn how to manage these things because these are important for us. So guide me on this as I try and unpack it further is, like, the... Obviously, in the in the addiction framing. Yeah context when a spouse is acts out with their addiction that can be very betray in that relationship. And it could bring chaos to the race Whether it's a pornography struggle and addiction... Or an alcohol struggle. I mean, drugs whatever. Obviously, it kinda... Creates that. And so it's more... You can decide to see it more dramatically in that setting. But even if there's not like, a stigma addiction in the relationship, it can be like, oh my wife's upset. Mh. And therefore, I don't feel right... We're not going to bed until you feel good, so I can feel good. This that's But I... You can get a mesh even in these day to day relationships that maybe don't even include a stigma addiction. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to... Put it. In there's a a book about c dependence called love is a choice, and in that book, the authors talk about something they call stock market syndrome, Put which is, like, when, you know, when 1 partner's up. They're both up. When when partner's down, they're both down. So they're kinda traveling in pairs up and down. Yeah. You know, depending on how 1 is feeling and the others kind of writing the hotels. And so these are things just in every... Again, even the temp recommend holding people, these are things to to look for? Like, there feels like there's chaos in my home. Mh. How does that make me feel? And how am I not... It's like, sometimes it's like, I can't just feel okay, even though chaos exists. I have to fix the cast, so I feel okay. And so these are signals that we're being mesh with these dynamics outside of us where we need a step back and say, I need to go be a mesh with... Jesus. Right? Right. And however, that that probably looks different from different people, but that's where, like, the prayer comes in, the, you know, the scripture study where you're just trying to surrender all that that to to you. So I on track with all that? Absolutely. And I think that surrender is really key for a lot of people. And that's like, I don't know if I'd say a core principle. That's a That's a big principle of the 12 steps. Right? Is that surrender? Yeah. Absolutely. I've been more interested recently in kind of the example of... Christ walking on the water and Peter coming out to him. And, you know, the water is tumultuous. And sometimes our homes are tumultuous. And the world is tumultuous. But if we stay focused on the savior, we will stay above it. Mh. We're not always staying above it. Sometimes it feels like we're drowning. But if we can keep ourselves, focused on the savior that will do so much for our peace and our ability to operate as best we can in a world of chaos. So I'm just curious, like, through your your independent journeys. Like, what has that look like when you feel like? I need to turn to Jesus and look at Jesus. So what how is that? Manifest self. It's hard. As you guys are saying this, I'm, like, I didn't do that. Well, like, with my first marriage when it really hits for me. I was a mess. Mh. You know, I was too c dependent. And if I had had a bishop, tell me, oh, lean on Jesus, I would have been lying. Are you kidding? And I think I kind of did in some ways. And I had a therapist, tell me that. And I was like, I don't get this. Like, you just need to fix him. And I'll be okay. U. You know, he's got the problem. You know? And so that's hard. If that's a a very humbling thing of, like, you know, maybe I'm too wrapped up here. Because there is a culture that thankfully is kind of subs exciting, of, you know, we cleveland under 1 another. We have to do everything together. We have to be 1. And and so in a lot of ways, you know, I took that as, like, I need to be part of my partner, my partner like, says how wonderful I am. You know? And if he's not wonderful, then I'm not wonderful. And so it was not healthy in that sense. And so for me hearing that was hard. Now I knew always that my savior was was the answer. And so I I did look for that. I wish I would have leaned more. Like Nate said I wish I would have been more en mesh with him and been like, you know what that's his issue. You know, and and I finally got that I think, after the fact. Like, after the divorce was over. And so when I met Nate, he had these issues. I was like, not your issue dude. Like, it's gonna be sad to see you'd like, deal with that, but, like, it that doesn't bother me. Yeah. That doesn't affect me. Yeah. You know, And and he was like, what? Sure you don't have more problem. I'm like, nope. We're good. Yeah. You know. And here's let interject there. What how does... Because make people might hear that and be, like, so my... Husband is, like, acting out out of control, and I'm just supposed to stay in that and be okay with it. Like, what what is that? No. I got to talk to truth. That that is hard. You know? And that is uniquely, like, personal to each person. But for me, it's like, I know Nate heart. I know that, like, he wants to work at it and that he wants to change. I also know, like, having an addictive past. It's not a matter of, like, if it's a matter of when. That he'll have a relapse. And so for me loving him, and knowing that this is something that probably eats him more than it eats me and supporting him in in a good way is helpful. Me coming to him and being like, oh, my gosh. I can't believe we did. You know, like, you've ruined her our whole life and, you know, all about me and like, how am I gonna feel? I mean, you want to. Like, I have those same thoughts, but for me to say, you know, that's gotta be really hard for you. Yeah. You know. Gosh. How are you doing? How can I support you in that? Mh. I think that that's helpful. You know, what's your plan going forward here? You know, and if he's like, well, I'm gonna keep doing this. But then you have a different talk. Yeah. But if he's like, yeah. I really fucked up and this is what it looks like. And, you know, that kind of things then it's different. But I think that that's like, unique to the end this situation. You know, I've certainly sat with people who are, like, the husband or the wife, is, like, I'm just gonna keep doing this. And you need to keep cleaning up my messes, and this needs, you know, to just be what we do. Yeah. And that's not healthy. Right. In any anyway, but it's unique. Yeah. And would you say a lot of times it's, like, if somebody's like, no, does I have that willing hard or is is trying even though they're slipping off. If they're just like, I'm just gonna keep doing this. It'll progress to a point where it gets worse some worse maybe you know, the the spouse begins to become abusive or stealing or lying further then it's like, listen. I'm gonna have to step out of this relationship. Because I have to predict by myself so that's when the boundary comes in. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's... And Marla to her point that, you know, it's it's very personal every situation is different. And so someone will have to kind of figure out, you know, what they wanna do and what's appropriate for them. It's hard when you have families and you have kids. And and, you know, how you wanna handle that? I think to your earlier question about, you know, like, how do we how do we connect with with the savior in a way that's meaningful? I like King Benjamin words? If you believe these things see that you do though. Mh. And so it's following the example of Christ is disconnecting from what we want with our partner, They've got their own path. You know, this is not a surprise to God. Like, maybe would have liked to known that before we married them, but like, you know, he's working with them and and they're doing their things on their own time. I don't... You know, nobody really knows how that's all gonna, you know, gonna play out. But we can be okay with Christ if we follow his example. And and a lot of that is, you know, doing the small kind of primary things, like, what's my praying? Like, you know, how often am I reading my scriptures? Am I attending church Am I getting to the temple when I can? Am I having, you know, meaningful connections with friends where I can take my brain to a place that with, you know, a relationship, that feels positive that can kind of fill my emotional cup, because I'm probably not gonna get that from my partner if anything, they're probably trying to take from my emotional cup. So taking care of ourselves, you know, even the example of Christ, who has all these followers we went way for 40 days to go fast and pray. Mh. You know, so sometimes we have to put it... Well, a lot of times we have to put ourself. First and that might feel selfish and or might feel wrong. And if you have a really immature spouse, that's very addicted, they might be like, well, you don't care about me and that's a them issue. Mh. And if they can rope you in they're giving them what they want, then that's going to continue this dynamic that hasn't been working. So then there's a question about, you, do you wanna continue that? You can do whatever you want to do, you know, just making sure that the choice intentional. So I... Hopefully that... Yeah. That's really uses that. Annette I wanna emphasize that moment where you're... Where you sort of come to this place of saying, that's a damn issue. Like, even with your spouse. Yeah. Like, that is such a... Spiritually mentally mature place to be. And, like, on the surface side, people would like, how dare you? You know, like, You're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to be there and cl... You know, Cl under your spouse type of thing, and the the cl can happen unless there's a really healthy foundation there. Right. To Cl to. Right? And so... And it's amazing, like, even on my own personal relationships and and journey, healthy where I've gotten to that place and, you know, just like all things. I, some days are better than others. Right? But to have the trust in God of surrendering that person you love so much to God and say, that's a dumb issue. They're gonna have to take that to God, themselves. I can't drag them to God to fix it. Like, it it isn't a place of empowerment where you're thinking, wow. And it's a place of, like, a sacred. Mh. Where you really feel that healing and anyways, it's a it's worth worth highlighting. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. What other point principle have I skipped over or story or anything else in your timeline. Well, you know, I thought 1 thing might be helpful to kind of conceptualize. This is, again, kind of the way that I look at the gospel with kind of a mental health bent. You know, 1 of the things that I thought was really interesting is as I was going through the book of Mormon recently and my reading was Ne by talking about himself and calling himself a W man. Which is so... I mean, this is a prophet of god. Yeah. I54. Yeah. I mean, what is going on. And so maybe there's space, for leaders to connect to something here. I am not a a neurologist neuroscientist scientist, but I have no not yet yeah. That's not the plan. I have to know just a little bit about a certain thing. So there's this part of our brain called the, and the is kind of related to disgust. And so we have actually this physical disgust. We also have moral disgust. Mh. This morning when we were at our hotel. I had a headache, so I went down to get some milk, and so I could drink, you know, have a little bit with my Ibuprofen to deal with my headache. And I took a sw, and it was sour. I spit it out. So there there's my insulin going. The connection I'm hoping to make here is this. If someone comes in and they're talking about their addiction and you feel disgusted, that is your brain. That is your flesh, that is your mortality. So yes, that is there for a specific reason. It's protective. It's to protect you. But where we sometimes have problems is we might start to feel discuss with the person, especially after, you know, oh, my gosh. This guy again and has, you know, been happening over and over and he keep saying he wants to get better, and he doesn't get better that's the nature of addiction. Like, that's just how it goes. The connection I wanna trade to make with Ne, what I was kind of reflecting upon the and disgust, and then I look at Ne and, like, him calling himself a W man. I kind of wondered. So I went to Miriam webster and looked up disgust, and as it turns out a s for disgust is W. So how about we're all disgusting? Right. Yeah. Or just like... Or we're all sinner. Right? I, yeah been since disgusting. Yeah. But for all sinner. Right? Yeah. Right? So, I mean, I... It's such a a paradox, you know, being human. And I think that I've started to learn a little bit more about what was meant? I didn't understand this earlier in my life about, you know, the broken heart. I was like, why am I supposed to have a broken heart? That sounds like a bad thing. But like, the more I connect with my human ness, and the more I become aware of my frail t's and problems and issues, like the more broken hearted I am because I see how far away from god, I am. But of course, we have the broken heart and a spirit. And when we have a contract spirit and we wanna change, and we wanna get better and that brings Jesus Christ into our life, and that spirit into our life. And it allows us to be better And so it's, like almost like the broken heart is the recognition of our human ness and the spirit. Is the, okay. Now I'm I'm gonna try to do something about that. And, maybe I don't even know exactly what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna start try to be, you know, try to be better, and God has a way of kind of, like, helping us find ways to be better when we're open to. And that is from what I'm hearing, like, that's another way of describing surrender? But when you get to this point where the only option is you either give it to God Yep. Or that's it. Like, well, you can internalize it and you're gonna be miserable because you can't control it. Right? And that's really the issue it gets worse. I guess, is. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And and marla anything come up as far as you wanna add there is do we... Did he do a pretty good job? No. I think Yeah. Good. You didn't spit out your breakfast this morning here. No. No. I didn't... I sent him to do that. I was great. Was this. Better than mine. Yeah. Before we wrap anything else that we missed or concepts you wanna discuss. Well, I think we hit it, but maybe we could throw this out just as a final point. If, you know, we are all broken, we are all humans where we are all sinner. If the church is the hospital. And of course, Christ is the surgeon the doctor, you know, he's the healer. And if the churches in fact, the hospital, I can't help but wonder if maybe Arp could be viewed like the Icu. These are the people on, like, spiritual life support. Like, oh, you know, And and that goes back to maybe what Marla was saying earlier about? Like, oh, do you wanna... You know, your cart outside the church during that meeting, I wonder if there's a way to look at this slightly differently. So reframe it. In the Icu, the greatest life saving is happening. The most miracles that happens, you know, are in the places where the people are the sickest. And so if we can begin to think about it from that standpoint, you know, that might help us realize that that is a time for joy. Like, these people are getting help and bringing the savior into our lives is what's going to really change us. It's gonna change them. You know, if we had the the spirit of charity in our hearts, then we would rejoice in that, or at least that's what I think That's my judgment. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting. You know, and he said that when I was married... The first time I really felt strongly that I was going to see a miracle that, you know, I could see the atonement working in my marriage and it would be beautiful again. And I held onto that for years. And when it fell apart, and we divorced, I was like, I thought I was gonna get this miracle, like, I knew that this could happen. And it was interesting to watch that I did witness that miracle. And Miracle did come, it came with another man. Mh. Watching him overcome what he is talking about that his visit to the Icu and how sick he was, but watching that, like, blossom and with the help of the atonement. As he leaned into and started to have that relationship with Jesus Christ and trust and have hope that's when the greatest healing came Wasn't with all the other stuff. So, you know, just grateful for that. You know? So for those who are dealing with somebody, who has an addictive path. You know, there is hope. This is the way that it happens. It takes somebody wanting it for sure. But there is that miracle you know, that can happen and it just through Jude Christ. Mh. Powerful. While any other point in principle, you wanna make sure we cover do we get Okay good. Is there... Do you have... You guys have a podcast? Here. You say? Do you wanna promote them? Maybe you don't wanna... You were supposed to tell it's a Star Wars podcast. You wanna listen. No. Well, it's a mental health podcast. It's not religious in any way. It's just all mental health is religious. I'm just... Well, no. I actually think you're right. It's funny. You read books, 1 of my favorite books about mental health. Called radical acceptance is driven by a a woman who I think is buddhist. And. I mean, you're talking about, like, compassion, non judgment, service, Like, so I I... We call that, Jeez. Right. Yeah. Right. And so you see all of these principles, but, you know, the Jesus is missing. Yeah. So... Yeah. Awesome. And we'll we'll plug for a good friend, Tony over bay. He's got his virtual couch, and I I've been on there feet times. You've been on there few times or both of you probably have. Right? So you... And you're probably just gonna be rotated through that. So we love Tony we'll have him back and have more conversation with him. Last question I have, And, I... I... You kinda end with it so well there, but I'm just curious, like, for those women in your state, you know, the in the middle of that chaos of marriage. Like, anything else that you would say to that group? What encouragement would you bias, but get a really good mental health clinician. You know, you're gonna need somebody to help you parse out your c dependency. Mh. And you're in measurement in the relationship. You know, work on yourself, feed yourself. You know, there's a spiritual component, to feed yourself in that way, but also feed yourself, like, you know, be kind. Figure out what is yours. Don't get bogged down by the partner aspect of it, you know, be healthy. And I think that that's, like, the advice that I probably would have loved 10 years ago, You know, Marla work on yourself. Mh. You know, I wouldn't have understood that the time, and I think a lot of women that are going through it are like, I just need to fix them. And probably be fine. And I'll have my perfect family back in my perfect... Whatever back. But it's not... You know, there's always space to work on yourself. Awesome. Yeah. I for you, Nate, and you can close this out is let's imagine we welcome back all those leaders from your from your journey. Who are in the room. It's like, 1 of those games show. This is your life, Nate. Those leaders come in, the high counselors that were in the room. Like, what would you what would you wanna witness to them of Nate in 20 24? That's a good question. I think I would express to them gratitude that they were able to find a place of compassion and love for somebody that they probably had their own human, you know, feelings of, like, disgust or concern or, you know, whatever it was. But I never felt, like like, anybody had anything judgmental to say. And I know there are stories that I mean, I have my own worry about someone the bishop that said something Judgmental bell, and I I was, yeah, boy was discouraged after that 1. But but maybe I needed to hear that in the moment. You know, you just never know. And and so I think gratitude for their willingness to connect to the spirit and to reflect the savior love to me because they felt something for me that I didn't feel towards myself. The end. That's it for this leading saints episode. I encourage you to check out some of the most popular episodes of the podcast that we list at the bottom of the show notes. If you haven't listened all of those, do so now. Remember, learn more about disclosing Betrayal from Jeff Str by visiting leading saints dot org slash 14. It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought fourth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made, concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of loneliness. A loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away and to which we must face up with bold and courage and ability.