Hello there, and welcome to sync music matters. A podcast that explores the beautiful relationship between music. And the moving image. My name is Jim H, and I'm your host on this journey. As each week, I seek to understand the people and the process, behind the best music in Tv film and games. I'm talking to composer, but I'm also talking to editors music supervisors, directors, and anyone else who's involved with a synchronous process of pairing audio and visuals. Anna Meredith, Mb. So Anna was awarded an Mb for services to music in the 20 19 Queen's birthday on. Cheese genre a crossing composer and producer whose work blends the World of Contemporary classical, art pop, electronic, hand experimental rock. In terms of her artist work, you can check out garments for which she won the Scottish album of the year award, and the Mercury prize nominated album of F, which pitch fork lauded as 1 of the best experimental albums of 20 19. Her recent film credits include the end we start from starting Jody Coma, which is in cinemas as we speak for Paul Rudd stark comedy living with yourself for Netflix and a 24 Tuesday starring Juliet Lewis Dreyfus, which is G to released. Time this year. This year being twins 24. Anna Meredith. Thanks for joining me. Hello? Hi. So the first question I always ask is, if we were to sort of rewind back to when you were, a young whip snap. If someone had asked you, what would you like to be when you grow up, what would you have replied? I mean, I guess we're... What level of Whip snap? I'm say in between 8 and 12. Okay. Okay. Really, on Whip snap or moderately? Young. Nothing to do with music, I think, probably some kind of, like, you know, circus performer, yeah situation, definitely not related to skill or talent in any aspect. I think I used do a thing where I would try and stand up in my swing and this is making me like a very un 12 year old, but let's let's lean with 8 and stand up my swing and then very labor and cl turn around and it while standing. Think god that's gonna blow from mind to the circus. So that that I thought would be my big my big career coming up That that feels like sort of entry level trap. That's where. Yeah. Harley stationary swing. I some sweating child. Fully stand around it. So why why where did the circus thing come from? Had you been to a circus? Must have. Or, you know, I was probably reading some kind of great eighties book about, you know, mister and missus, cause ko mitochondria that kinda suddenly coming back to me as a as a book, you know, yeah. I think just desire for... Well, I don't... As I say this, I wasn't doing any gym Gymnastics sticks or ballet or anything sort of performing like that. I think I just had whim dreams that were entirely, not not related to school. No. Well it sounds like you just wanted to blow people's minds. So... Right. Yes. But not with my swing. All this swings in the end yeah. And and you'd sort of implied as well that there's almost an... And may have been an evolution for so from Circus performer with the sort of other iterations of skills. Yeah. I mean, definitely, the music stuff has taken a long time to kinda. Feel that that's what I do. You know, for a while, I think I probably thought some kind of creative writing. You know, I desert about looking at doing English. Are, you know, Uni, and I thought I might wanna go study Cla, rather than, you know, anything to do a writing music initially, you know, sad realization that not actually good enough at the cla as with the the swing skills or the writing skills for that matter. So yeah. I think there's just a lot of sad home truths leading to leaning into other skills that... Gradually honed in on... And also a bit of, realizing, you know, I don't think I'd thought about writing music and, you know, realizing what that certain thoughts or impulses about music or creativity or even just listen to piece of music and feelings, some, you know, feeling urges that the piece to do x Wednesday actually is I kind of the beginnings of a little creative ideas and that maybe that was something to listen to or recognizing its own right. Yeah. So, I know what stage did... That happened then this the... Because, obviously, you you perform music and you obviously Cla and had by idea of Papua go to University to study. When did the playing turn into composing creating? I mean, either deaf... Of the first piece I wrote was the piece piece that you had to do for your standard grade in Scotland like your Gcs. Either So I didn't... I wasn't someone who's was writing music as I kid at all. It just didn't... I had no concept or awareness of music as a creative thing. You know, I I start to do a little bit of playing, you know, recorder and Scottish Fiddle, and that kind of stuff and then start learning. Clearing it at high school, I guess, I think I've probably it kind of late, you know, so did this little tiny terrible pieces for my school exams. And then You know, probably late late or, you know, 16 ish. I think I was, starting to play lots of youth orchestra and when bands start I love, that, and, you know, it meant I got to play all kinds of music. And, I I guess I just start to sometimes notice these really strong senses of of the music of, you know, of feeling should do this or it should end here or it should what whether this happen, And I wouldn't be having nothing practical and also isn't sort of like, Beethoven and I... You you you stand decide I've got a better idea, but Yeah. It was just these idea, you know, these sort of... I think beginnings of trusting my instinct, which has kind of been a bit of a... Thing that I've learned to really lean on, and I was lucky that I had a, you know, the... Little weird little pieces I wrote for these school exams. My teacher was like, I least they're quite interesting, and, you know, I did a few more, But I think I was still at that point thinking it was gonna be cla it and for it was only a bit later that, you know, these hindsight are absolutely awful, but little school, tiny, cl written pieces was back to front, crotch heads and stuff became, you know, thinking, well, maybe... I'll go and it. No know, I and I did the general music degree. I didn't do you know, study just composing or just cla. I went to York, where, you know, you do a music degree. And actually, I did absolutely no composing really. I did, tons of playing and Ran, the new music group which was also really useful because you kinda did the practical stuff about players and hiring prep rooms and getting hold of music and stuff that's the kinda un camera side of music making. So I'm not sure if that's answers your question, very rambling. Sorry. Yeah. Well, I mean, for it's worth. I I quite like the idea of you rewriting Bay beethoven came in a minute. Bad idea. Haven't you. Yeah. So that was sort of your first sort that I suppose feeling into creating yourself. At, what point did it become an idea that Hang on a minute. I could I could do this as a career... I could do music as a career, whether that beep. Forming or or... But certainly as a composing or writing. I mean, Way later, you know, I went... To do, Did a post grad composing and weirdly, even though that was, like I suppose more specific, the fact of, you know, that was at the royal college and very prestigious and first time in London and all that kind of thing and but so as well as being a very focused and environment it's also fairly intimidating and, you know, real it's starting to actually get a handle of what being a composer, especially a kinda contemporary classical, which is sort of what I was studying or the world I was that that type of course was entering you into at that time. What what that involved and how little I knew how little contemporary music I loo knew how little skill I had and, you know, technical skill I'd, you know, taught or, you know, had developed. So I think it took me a, you know, along to, you know, even after I graduated from there, and I... Then I had a junior fellowship there where I went back and I think, you know, and it was so fair, I guess the very first commit commissions where people start to ask you to write stuff, and maybe it's for hardly any money or you know, but you're still doing other things to help finance at all. So I don't remember that ever being I kind of, like, yes. I am a composer moment. It just kinda evolves until gradually, it's the only thing you're doing. Or or, you know, even my it's... I don't think that has to be the only marker, you know, tons plenty of people myself included have done all kinds of stuff to support. What they do. I think it was just maybe where it felt that there was a continuity of things peep, you know that 1 thing seemed to be leading into another and, yeah, stuff like that, but I don't know if it's particular thing that feels defining. No particular milestone. Do you remember the first composition project that you got paid for? That's a really good question. I'm trying to remember. I mean, there was some that felt really important. I did a just after college, I wrote or a really short orchestra peace of mind, was used, in a workshop for, kinda of young composer at the Hud field, Contemporary Music Festival, and where James Mc milan conducted. And I was... I'd already done this piece as a little mini pieces of college, and he conducted it, and it was a Bbc phil monica and, you know, that felt really big and really exciting. And I don't... So I don't think I was I was paid for because It was peace I'd written as a student, but that then that piece then led to me. Becoming composing residents at the Bbc Scottish Symphony Orchestra, which, you know, did have a couple of some paid commissions as part of it, So I think the kind of grown up or beginning of that thing feels like a important seed for what then came next. Yeah. Sure. So I'm just picking up on, a couple of times you've you mentioned skill. And almost a a realization or understanding that you you felt like your skills were falling short of what you wanted to do, how how much do you think skill is an important part of composing of just creative expression and and capturing that. I think it can really varies. I think, I think it's about what you as our individual musician or composer want to do. I think for me, it's much less interesting. Skill than authenticity or ideas. If you've got a great idea and you don't know how to write it down, that is much less of a problem than having amazing notation skills, but no ideas. You know, I think if you can sing an idea down or draw it down, that's a much more you know, I'd hate for its skill or or some kind of training to be the the obstacle to actually doing something creative. That being said, you know, I know for a lot of people. They've really honed their voices through, you know, careful study and technique. So I think it's kind of down to what feels authentic and right for each individual person. You know, if you if if if 1 person feels that finding the thing that they wanna do really involves, of certain techniques or ways of writing or then that... I think that's brilliant and for other people of its about almost deliberately going the other way and just trying to purely work instinctively, and intuitively, great. I think I kind of am somewhere in the middle where I really trust my instinct, but I know I have to use quite a lot of not matt, you know, not by some people probably pumping and probably wouldn't consider massive scale, but I've I've def... Use the skills I've learned and, you know, not notation to handle rhythm and pacing the way that I like to do and that if you know, I wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't know how to not rotate music club, I hadn't had the sort of some of the foundations I did. Yeah. Sure. And something is quite interesting as well as the the the fine line between art and commerce and but obviously, with you as an as a music artist. As well as being a composer, you're you're str that that line between art corners. How much do you feel like you're artist informs the kind of more commercial side things when you're writing to picture and on composition of projects. I mean, I'd like to say I'm trying to think if this isn't in way, not true or dis. I mean, I'd like to say that I try really hard to... To just lean into the artist side and that I really... I don't try to take anything that would be having to involve sound like anybody else not necessarily of any big principled reason just that I'd be rubbish at it. You know, I know that I can't someone not wanted me to write a different way. I can try and do my version of that thing, but even then I'd so much rather always be writing under my own parameters and and, you know, benchmarks and ideas then certainly anyone else's musical templates. So, yeah. I've I've I'm trying as much as I can to just be self led. And if those things managed to have kinda of commercial, versions of them and, you know, of course, I'm I'm I'm it be untrue, I think to say that there aren't you know, because now some stuff is being used in quite commercial ways that I've done, and I I love that. It's great and it's it's fun, and I really enjoy that that side of, and it obviously has its own challenges and composition creatively. But Yeah. I don't know. I... I've... The way that I approach writing is very tapped into, I kind of quite blink. Internal drive driven, in order to write the way that that I do, I have to believe that it's just me doing my thing. So I might be trying to do through a lens to fulfill a brief of a particular thing, but the actual literal writing, is not really thinking about that too much because I will just do a much better job if I'm just trying to deal with a problem musically. And so does it presumably be then your creative process. Is there kind of nuanced difference approaches if you're doing writing for a phone versus just... Doing your own thing or is it it's the process they're much the same? It's real... It's pretty similar. You know, most things I do, I draw. Doing, or I, like, stepped very far back, and I draw kinda outline of the shape of what I'm trying to do, this sort of pacing, the sort of dramatic out outline, or sometimes I can just imagine that and I hit my head I don't draw it anymore, but that idea of zooming out for where the high points are where changes feel might be where something new you might enter. I like to imagine that a timeline. So I will use that approach for anything I'm writing, whether that was, like, I don't know an orchestra piece or my band stuff, but with the film that piece, that shape would be dictated by something else. So... But the from there, the process of getting the shape working I what needs to happen where making kind of mood board version of that shape where I might put in some little snapshots, you know, okay. This big switch of feel could be based around this little cord or this rhythm or something. To then not everything, everything that goes into surveillance. And then from there, I export the midi and work able so, like, go... I'll use that same process even if what I'm finally writing is completely electronic. But, yeah, it would just might be that the shape... Yeah. I guess, fundamental the shape being the main thing is controlled by something I haven't come up with. Yeah. But it it sounds like the starting point is is quite visual then if the the sort of first your first point of call you go to is to... To create a timeline and and you're you're creating a mood board. And I noticed the is the artwork of your albums? Is that your your own art to No. That's my sister. Oh, it's just sister. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But that's fascinating that the the starting point is, like it is sort of almost the visual. Yeah. I mean, 1 I like it because if I was working with someone else, dancer, visual arts maker that... Know, filmmaker, you can be looking at something quite visual and be like, okay, at this point, and you can all... You know, you're not saying that, 5 4 sections, the whatever, you you can all everyone can see these shapes. And when we're all... And if you're making some together, you can be saying, okay, We're gonna build and build a build and then at this point. I think it should thin out to something, and they can make a visual equivalent, and you can make a musical it can on your own and the same page about what is happening directional, what energy, what the energy is and what the is what the transformation or what the direction is for each each moment. So it's not thinking visually in a kind of synthetic. Yes. This is, you know, is blue or it's says colors. It's all about direction, really about transformation and about if this is idea a, where does it go? What does it mutate into? And where would idea b come in? What's the right pacing. So a lot of it is about a kind of internal clock and about thinking. This thing, the can last this long before something else needs to come in or before it needs to change into something else. So it these very broad brush stroke ideas of transformation and transformation or adaptation or surprise that kind of thing. Yeah. I'm where do you find inspiration? It's a really un fun, not very satisfying answer of that it quite... It's very internal. There's no... Like, I'm not someone who would look to, a poem or it's painting or anything like that, or, basically, I just try and solve little musical problems of on my on my own. And that, you know, so it it'll just purely be... Okay. I've I've thought of a little idea. And maybe I'll sung it into my phone. At some point and I like it and I might then think what could that this idea become, and I'll kinda draw shape around what it might happen happen to it. Or the other way around. Sometimes I'll I'll have a draw shape or think of shape and then make little ideas to fit that shape. I guess, you know, I've definitely done stuff, you know, including films or, I did a big orchestra piece a few years ago, you know, where the starting point was the, you know, centennial the first world war and that was a real challenge for me to work out how to take something, so massive and so not self, you know, not under my own parameters, Not under my control as a starting starting point, and I really had to find a way in into some... You know, that subject that where I felt I could write confidently, and with, a thought what, authority sense a bit dick ish, but we know, with, confidence confidence here. With something so, you know, huge. And do you remember what that that... That point was what that in road was that you found. Yeah. I mean, I think it was... Well, 1, it was been given the blessing of the some of the commissioners that I didn't... You know, that the point of this piece, you know, it a huge big thing. It was like, you know, part funded by 14 80 now who did a lot of cent things for the end of the first for the first world wars anniversaries, but it also was for the first night at Bbc prom and to open the other edinburgh festival. So, you know, and it was gonna be a cool collaboration with the 59 productions who do these massive external projection mapping things. So, you know, all kinds of fairly fill on collaborators and pressures and stuff. But at some point, I can't remember even who Was talking to maybe someone for 14 89 and they're saying, you know, we don't want this to be lone bug and Cp horses running, you know, this has got if feel authentic and your understanding of it. So I think it was being given the blessing to try and find a way and no matter how small it was, and I've always found that I would rather write something about something tiny and explored it out. You know, I'd rather, I think I want to say some more awful quote about, like, rather a piece about a paper clip and about love and that sort of makes sense to me that I would, you know, rather take something I can get my head around and make it look at it from every angle and do a, like, monster version of this tiny thing, then take something. I can't wrap my head. So with that piece end it'd be called 5 telegram, And so I thought of split it into 5 movements and each movement ended up being about a type of communication used in the first world war and a little exploration of something like codes or red reduction or the these particular types of telegram where stuff was set sort of set letter that soldiers were sent away with this kinda weird multiple choice postcard where you scored off things. You know, I'm well. I'm actually looking at 1 right above this screen of you, which is stocks in my wall, but, yeah, it's like they're really amazing because it's you would sent off with a bunch of these things, and it says, you can write anything else you can say happy Christmas or whatever It's just like this little. Kind of a equivalent now of a text, I guess, They were sent back super super quickly kinda of checking in, but not really saying very much. So That's right. Very long winded. But, yeah, So just I took these very practical, almost pros. Little thing mechanisms and rule allowed them those mechanisms, like something as simple as red reduction, in that move movement of the piece of music sort of for decks. So it had a phrase plays around then it when it plays again, it's that place that 1 bit of the phrase a blip is, you know, interrupted by, as if it's been blocked. Out and then it goes, you know, it happens more and more and more. So, you know, really simple concept, but that metal that fell. Out authentic. Or, that's felt. Like, okay. That makes sense clear. Like that's so that's how I'm gonna do it. Yeah. I I love that. I think it's amazing it. I've never really considered that, But as you say, you know, the concepts of love is... It means different things to different people and it's a very kind of big abstract theme and to to to write about it, but actually, to take a a very specific, very small thing and and use that as a starting point. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And just quickly I mean, I, I we're gonna talk about, go under the skin, but I just wanna touch on the Mb. Right. Because I it I've I've staggered when already had an Mb... I mean, how does how does it come about? How does how does 1 get an n be? How I get an n be? Sure. I mean, yeah. It... Yeah. Kind of sort of forget about it. If she says annoying unknowingly. I think it's caused I did this big prompts piece, probably. You know, and I've done actually, I've I'm of lots of places put I've had a few problems performances, and I guess maybe type of institution comes up on, you know, I don't know how how the sort of selection stuff works, but that would be my guess. That that's that the kind of thing that might be on someone's radar maybe. But, you know, I think I'd be kidding myself to think that you it would be through my like, album or band stuff. It's which is kind of sad as well, You know, that feels like a kinda slightly strange, or, you know, the parameters for evaluating what is I don't know mark, but, yeah. You know, you just get a sort of lovely of, you know, heavyweight letter in the post. Yeah. It was a... And it was a sort of surreal all day. Fair just at start? Was it just pre covid? Yeah. Okay. So lot you could lock down with your with your heavy envelope. Right. That's it. But I suppose, you know, maybe the the prongs, thing puts you on the map, and then all of the other achievements and things you the albums you've done in the solar stuff, maybe that all feeds into it as well. Yeah. I... You know, I I I've always, you know, part of the reason I didn't ever make, like, a band name for my other stuff from my you know was that it is all me and I do try and, do it all the same way. You know, I approach all the same way. So I'd love to think that someone wasn't just only interested in the quotes classical stuff that they were looking at the other things, and, you know, that was a little tiny nod to that. You know, obviously see slightly mixed feelings about some of the royal stuff at the moment, but, you know, no doubt, I kinda really nice recognition of, that moment. Yeah. Well, amazing. Congratulations. Thanks. Incredible. That's probably a good point to go under the skin. Under the skin. The project the that sort the bluff to sort of have a little chat about is the end we start from particularly person because it's it's out at the moment, and I haven't seen it, but there's a number of people were here at the the studios who were talking about over lunch last week. So can you give brief an synopsis of the film for for anyone who hasn't seen it? So... Peter of. The films had a adaptation of a book. Same name that a few people have read. I actually haven't read it, but I really must where, it's it sounds on some level like a disaster movie, and it kind of it, you know, there is an environmental and disaster side where you know, London or the Uk floods, and it's very much set, you know, what if this happened tomorrow, a lot of the kinda of chaos and, lack of preparation and it feels very real or very but also that we just follow 1 1 women who who's sort of nameless character with that Jody Ko, plays who is a a brand new mother, you know, and we see her start the film pregnant and her and her husband Yeah. It basically follows them. I think for a year, as they try to figure out, own know what as they with end let's figure out what to do. But it's funny because I think if you were to describe it So I very badly just done, it seems a lot more about, you maybe you might think, oh, god, You know, shots of big ben or water and stuff, but it's much more intimate and personal and much more keyed to, you know, new motherhood and stuff, you know, sense of perseverance and strength and resilience, you know, that is compounded absolutely no doubt by the sort situation this women finds herself in and the the various awful thing She deals with, but there's there's a kind of universal of, you know, maybe female strength and, that is... Really run through it. So it's kind of very strong and gentle. I mean, that's not because get to put female, but just it's very personal intimate film as well as these this kinda of epic backdrop. Yeah. And it... It's interesting is because whilst there's an element of interests, albeit morbid in disaster moves and things like that. It always feels like the more interesting approaches is the human humanity the human interest story, and then the backdrop being that rather than the, you know, they disaster being the the be and, which is probably public luck and the Right. Is 8 8 is nineties. But these is the character study It's the humanity. And it's like, oh, that could be me. How would I deal with it, Howard would how would I cope Yeah. And all the very human stuff about, you know, we just don't really know what we're doing. And, the chaos of it, and the indecision, but ultimately, you know, this woman trying to be a good mother and keep her baby, you know, and the great people she meets in the way and their awful stuff at, you know, it's some 3... You know, it's a hopeful and really sad film at the same time. Duties coma is, you know, amazing, really, incredible in it. So some so strong. Yeah. So it was a a real... Yeah. It's really chat to be asked it. Yeah. Amazing. And it did occur to me as well when you said they're sort of being unprepared, I think given given how Covid went down in the lack of preparation for that, God help If london and does flood yeah. Oh, absolutely. There's there's not no all totally experience. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You definitely have a sense, and you can just imagine it. You know, remember all they, like, yeah, toilet roll panic and all that stuff. That. You know people fighting over, what was it pasta you know, on the nonsense. Yeah. I'm sure it would... It feels they're all too believable in that sense. So I wonder if it'd be the same then if if if there was an intermittent threat of London flooding, whether everyone would go and stock up on toilet paper because... It never occurred to me and the toilet paper would be the most valuable commodity. Yeah. 20 during. Spread. Right? And then. Everyone's... Freaking out about something that I thought I think there was even something that there wasn't really even a toilet roll shortage. It was just that it was sort of generate. It's like when people would fuel and stuff, right people were just kinda not prematurely, but it's just kinda of freaking out and yeah, Who not... Who knows? I mean, and this is, I think it's the whole whole country, and, you know, they've made done this stuff with, you know, they've shot this film and a very small... On a small budget, but done a beautiful job of of getting a sense of it, yeah. However have different people would deal all the situation. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I think if it does happen, I'm I'm gonna head straight out to get a a mask and a snorkel some flipper. Sorry was toilet the papers. Or good worry. Run at the L, bubble along. Yeah. Pin Cola on the side. Yet. That's it. So let's talk about the creative process and how are you approached, scoring the film. Did you... Was it that did you start at script stage? Or did you did you have visuals to work with? Where... What what at what point were you brought into the process and and what was your process? And So I've been told, which is really lovely that the director Natalia, Bell, you know, N now that she wanted to work with me, which is... Really nice. I'm gonna say but, but I think... And so I did have a chat with her a long time before but I was kind of actively bought in once it was all shot. And they were I guess, in editing, and I went had a spotting session with her, which is nice... Is so it's nice that they'd don't even think about me because I think they'd had some of my stuff, that they wouldn't even even listened to a bit as they were shooting. And certainly, it meant, which is obviously such a gods send that some of the temp was mine already. Okay. Great. Yeah. Really helpful. And yeah. So everything was, you know, I she she's very musical. But also, it knows how Write on new my stuff. I think she's been to few gigs and stuff of mine. So I, you know, I guess, I knew that that's really important that, you know, to me that I knew you sense so that, you know, the music could have a an identity as well. And she would come here to my studio, which is in the somerset house, which is more just like a little writing room really. Hardly any equipment, and we would just what look at the scenes together, talk about them, what they needed to do. You know, she's obviously talking from a director, sense of, you know, the quality or the emotion that the scene needs to do or, you know, what needs to happen, and I'm annoying thing on how for musical things about lightroom orange you think it whatever. It could... I don't even know what. But 1 thing I didn't know quite early or Had a release strong. I wanted the film to have a sound or have a kind of color to it. I knew I'd be predominantly working with electronics. I want to have some real instrument mental color. And I just had this sort of when I watched it with the rough cut with, you know, temp and stuff, that I thought it should be sort of flute heavy. And you still some stuff of strings and things, but I felt. There was something by the intimacy that, you know, sure lovely soaring, a string stuff is amazing, and there's definitely some string moments in the score as well. But that there was something about breath, and 1, you know, the a note as a breath and the beginning and end of that. And the Yeah. Something about not just like a big mastering sound that felt like something I I'd try to suggest to me, you know which how does she think that would... B and, you know, and as well as real flute and different, you know, out of flute and, regular flute to flu flu thin as well. So it's was kind of airy found to the whole thing. And I think it also slightly work because which was initially a bit of a challenge for me because some of the cues, I know, I like writing things these big geometric shapes Was talking it before, you know, lots of big, bills and cuts and sw and actually here, there were definitely points things needed to head to, but stuff also had to cut, you know, not so sorry what size fade out or find ways to gently to evolve. So I had to find softer shapes. So I think, thinking about that kind of color or helped as well? Yeah. Well, think what was lovely listening to it definitely feel that that... That breath. There's almost a there's always a muted quality to it as well as on... So I don't know for some reason. It's a... I think it probably comes across as sort of the underwater thing, but quite often there's it... There's what feels like, oh I don't know. It sounds like almost electronic sense stuff, but quite a lot of delays and feedback delays and and things washing around in spaces which provides this this sort of lovely soft backdrop on which you then have this sort of soften and that does you say the flute and the strings. Was that was that the kind of tonal color that you you're talking about? Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely, you, and I does said, you know, there's a detachment, I think in some of these situations where things are hap. You can't, you know, stuff happening and you're... I wanted to keep some of that. So I... Some stuff I tried to make super direct and super, like, you know, in your face and the way that we I worked with Jack Ross and to mix and and we tried to make sure some stuff felt very clean and the other things were more diffuse and In a, sort of washer in well, wash seems too watery. But in I don't know. In a in a softer, softer space. And, you know... There's some bits that are definitely more rhythm and some pulse stuff as well. You know, it's not all just lovely beds of, you know, of of air is I've tried to make sure there's some you know, some rhythm mixed stuff, propulsion stuff as well. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's it's lovely. I was it was to 1. Was it... 1 of the queues. Was it a little human? It's a little world? Little world. Yeah. It almost bumped to tears because I could almost imagine what was happening on the screen and it was, yeah, it was peaceful. Actually, that's a really nice what that was a nice queue. To work with because it it's it's a, you know, it's very. It's a kinda a little it's a little clockwork little flute line, and I remember may it it's in it's in this scene where the main characters have gone to seek safety and a rep... You know, at the parents house of her of the main characters husband. But it's just kind of denial. And I remember may. She wanted something where she she even said the phrase, which really stuck with me like, in their all little a world, they're just kidding themselves at this all gonna be okay that they can grow their own vegetables and, you know, shoot animals, but if you actually see the film, it's kind of... They're you know, even though they're proudly, you know, coming back in with, I don't know, a dead rabbit, It's taps tiny, and the supplies are running thin, but they're trying, you know, think that they've got this kind of la. Everything's going great sense. So, yeah, I think I was trying to write something that had this surface clockwork, I'll taught, you know, automation, something is just keeping going with unease brewing in the in the underneath. Yeah. Amazing. And you you know, you're saying earlier with in terms of dis things down and you get the example of a paper clip or red reduction for for 1 projects. Was there something like that within this that you kind of dis distilled it down to as a starting point on it? Yeah. I'm trying to think... There was a few things where there's a sense of there's a kind a couple of little themes that evolved to reflect different situations. So there's a kind of slight sanctuary. There's a bit material that comes back a few times and it's kind of evolved through the different scenarios you hear it in to reflect a kind of progression of the film or where where is at in that sense. And there's a couple there's another little theme that is slightly associated with. I mean, it wasn't simple as I. Yes, here the theme for the sky or this person, but that that is about, 1 of the main characters is that we used a few times to shoot to to to reflect him, but I didn't wanna make it too obvious. Or to explicit. And trying to think if there's was anything else that we did. That was too that was technical and that or, you know, that was an idea in that sense. Give me 1 sec. Well, it was also interesting because of the sound design. There's a lot of water in the in the sound design, you know, even if it's unseen water, You, you know, there's water there's rain and there's water happening, but there's quite often actual water in the, in water silence for in in other circumstances. So trying to find ways to quite often I had to work workout ways to do to... Like, actually, an opening track that I did she's in labor and those sort of 2 peaks in a way. And 1 is time design and 1 is what's happening on this... And I had to sort of find a way to double to find 1 way to push something and keep something else back that brood in a different way. So I think maybe doesn't quite answer your question, but I think there was a few ways I had to sort of solve not very problems, but work out how to do something like would the work musically with, other challenges happening the screen. Yeah. And and I think as well as it's there's quite a common common challenges isn't and it depending on... On the sound design. There's this there's there's there's a probably a happy place in the middle where the the sound design isn't competing with the music and and vice versa, but hopefully they're working. Together. Do you ever try and kind of blur the line between music and sound design yourself? I haven't had a I mean, I would love to... As I, you know, do more in this world hopefully and you know, find a way to... To, I guess me that more joined dot conversation, and I've been lucky. I think with, you know, there hasn't been any massive problems. I like, you know, the sign designs been great for the projects I've been involved with. I don't think it's massively my skill set to... I don't think I would want try and take anything to text on as of... You know, I definitely think I could do tech. Yeah. But I guess, super, can you... I recreate the stuff, I think... And I... I would didn't know I'd be awful at it. So I think I... I my... Idea with me for me would be to work with with someone, and, obviously, want yours always want the music be loud and yours always wanted to be really present and yeah, to find those moments where the music can really push through is. It's really important for... To Yeah. And I, it's obvious that you enjoy marrying the worlds of electronic and sort of more organic conventional instrumentation. So I mean, do you... Help how deep down do you drill with sound synthesis? Not all. No. Okay. Yeah. Like... For me, it's the last bit of my writing process, and I lose the presets. And I have loads of just simple, really simple plug that I like and reuse over and over again because for me, I kind of have ideas of what's, you know, what types of science I need. And I'll almost be thinking kind of cast. Like, what is their space for in this in this texture, you know, what is this something dry or something fizzy or something low or... And then if I've got ideas of the dry and fizzy and low stuff that I no 1 like, you know, in a way, like, if I'm ranked for a violin, I'm right for a violin that, you know, I got to old old friends that work well for me and Yeah. So... And that's probably partly, experience and confidence it I or at And, I guess, if I'm honest, I kinda interesting. It's just not where I'm not... You know, I know lot of time or heads space to kind of super nerd get into that stuff, and I really you know, hugely admire and it's not any criticism and all the many people who do that stuff. Just I feel for the way that I write the ingredients, of what I'm trying to do are what matter more to me than the production. I, like, I know that production is not my, 40. So I will try and make the materials work almost, if I'm writing on Surveillance, I'll make sure that the the materials work is just like 7 piano. So the actual ingredients that not something, you know, the crotch and quaker and rhythms work separate. So I'm not relying on the production stuff. Because it's not my skill set. So that's person that sense the electronic is more the the condiments to to your main meal. Yeah. You know, And I say that. I mean, I'm definitely getting better, and I enjoy it more, but I just don't... You know, when I first started running electronics, I was diving straight into Able and, trying to, you know, watching millions of little tutorials and how to do stuff and how to, you know, tricks that people are doing and it was really exciting and overwhelming, but I just couldn't work at how it made any how... What what relation at brought to my, you know, Na score writing and how to do, you know what, I don't know, making some kind of side chain compression pump thing, You know, what that was gonna do with my, you know, labor bo made score. So eventually stopped going straight to Able and figured out the thing of writing, you know, drawing, then writing not rotating, then exporting midi, and it going into... And then actually if so now when I need something new, I'll just keep going back to surveillance and writing a new thing and exploring the mid, and if it's just a couple of bars and of, you know, evolving it that way. And, yeah. I, you know, I do... It's not at all. I make I've been a bit flip imply that it's just like, lob in a couple of presets. So I, you know, I know the types of sounds I want, and I do tweak them, but it's quite instinct it, I kinda know when they're good enough, and I try not to let it bother me if they're... I don't know. If if they are... Just... If it's working, I'm not gonna try and overthink Oh, god, you know, I don't can't think what would be an insecurity. This has sound someone else might have used or I've if used it before or something like that. Yeah. And suppose sometimes in the digital world because you can in theory, tweak can change forever. I think before digital went back in the analog world, you had to make a decision on the sounds and commit to them whereas the danger is that with digital, you can you can tweak forever. So at some point. Yeah. And you have to draw the line and go, okay, And it sounds like, well, the starting point. And interestingly, so do you... When you say say you you you write the fences to Bayless and then you export the mid. So do you you you don't program things in and And is also more your starting point just sort of sitting down with some a scores or Surveillance and coming up with ideas. So it's... You're not really sitting at a Piano or... No. No. No. It's drawing. And then I will sit a look, a little mini keyboard, and, you, if I need a certain cord. I'll sit and figure out that cord so I never improvise. Or it be, like, singing maybe something into a phone a little idea and then try to work out what that is on a piano sort of note at a time, but, I don't have that Well, I find for myself. I'm not gonna... Something's not gonna happen by happened in the way that I want through my terrible playing. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's fascinating because it... I worked years ago worked with Steven W was blown away because his... Again, he gets piece of score paper and he just sort of... Write something down. And, if if it wasn't the technology, I would not be able to compose music. III need to be able to... I'm so driven, I need to be able to hear it in order to know whether or not it works, so it's fascinating that these very to 2 very different approaches and it sounds like else that yours is is is quite soon as as Yeah. Well, I mean, I definitely use the playback. Like, I like the awful general media of Surveillance and, you know, so I'm using that those terrible sounds. Those, like, 9 piano to make sure the ingredients work. I definitely am I'm using the playback. I'm not Yeah. You know, sitting looking the paper by I to I hear this. And I can sort of hear scores but not in massive detail of the exact harmony. So I rely on the playback a lot, but I'd deliberately use the playback. And kind of sounding as bad as possible to check that it works before I try and, you know, figure out what the electronic side is. The worst. That's... Suppose if if it... If you can get it sounding as good as possible with the terrible bailey right. When you actually assign re... A real instrument to it, it's gonna sound amazing. That's kind of my... That's sort of the challenge I sent myself, like, and that's such a lovely moment. If you've made something kinda work. With, you know, an r inquire and sort of, you know, you know, the... Well we all know what that that's so that those sign sound like. Then you... It's a gift. It's a great moment to kind of go okay. Let's actually find some awesome epic massive base to change instead of this piano or this sort of midi t I've been using or, and that's really exciting and I really enjoy that process because it's big brush stroke, transformations and everything just immediately sounds as Gazillion times better, but I try not to leak frog straight in there. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's incredible. Brilliant, well I suppose them, just We'll we'll... Talk about your influences in a segment just before, obviously, Tuesday is out some time this year. What can we expect from the score for that? So score is is very different to the end we start from, I really enjoy doing it. I get what again. It was a very different. Film, it's funny and heartbreaking and fantastical and bonkers and got very, you know, a different feel to the whole thing. Another first time director who I I love working with, but a very similar type of process. Actually, I think Initially, there wasn't gonna be score in the film. There's lots of very, very good and clever same design in the film, because of some of these fantastical elements they've really done amazing job, imagining how I don't wanna say it's spoil too much about it, but there's some... There's an element or a character in the film who ends up having, you know, very distinct sign design. But I think once the idea for score came in, some of the score, there's 1... Basically, there's kind 1 massive epic faq in the middle that I got to do where I really got to just like like go for it and write something that gets like, it's I've get so exciting, hearing that moment in the film because it's so pushed up front, and it's like a, like just like a big massive needle drop. And then other things actually what was quite fun as Dina, the director was really interested in creating a lot of... I I did it always per precaution, I mean, electronics again, but per precaution and and cello, but not played conventionally. So there's a lot of, quite... Well extended technique stuff with with with the strings and per precaution, we used a lot of sandpaper paper, and she want some breath of not like stamped similar, but sort of newspaper and scrum size. It's very text and there's a lot. I can try remember the quality of what it was that she said that she wanted that led us that stuff. I think... I was just sort of playing her these ideas I hadn't... We're getting really excited about some of the sounds that was this amazing. I remember this amazing session with the C Maddie cutter where she decided she could figured out she could just send like a modem or, like, those all dial in so was with that be, bam on me through her kinda over pressured stuff, and we used that a few times. Yeah. I think it was just a sense of of of, there's a few... There's a lot. Fat lots and months of the film where stuff just feels like it's kind of things are splinter and falling apart and, you know, real that kinda of cracked in reality I guess or and and and character is or in the whole world fabric she says dramatically. And so I think these kind of slightly heightened weird sounds, had space, which was obviously a total gift to be given this free rain to just do all this weird and wonderful stuff. Yeah. It says 6... The sixth where the excitement is isn't it us sort of getting experimental and, fantastic. Getting a taste. In terms of influences, that's supposed to start musically, are there specific albums, pieces of music that you can identify from probably your more formative years, that created some kind of epiphany in terms of, like, whoa, what's that? Things that just really stick out in your mind now. And you think of possible, you know, gone some way to informing what you do today. I mean, normally when I'm asked that question, the answer is, which is true that I don't listen to music. And I, you know, which sounds a bit miserable, But it's... It doesn't help me creatively to hear other stuff, and I'd... For lots of reasons, you know, it doesn't... I I don't want to be thinking about how someone else has done something, you know, obviously, I have to if there's some temp, but as soon as I can, I will just? I I don't try and ever, you know, I try and do something as wildly different if I can just because I don't want for to try and think of another reference point in that way, similarly even write my own stuff. I don't wanna be thinking about how someone else is. Start track or, I don't know, has some big thing. I'd much rather be thinking about solving that problem on my own terms. So Yeah. You know, for myself, now currently, I basically just listen to audiobooks books. And listen to them all time, I have them on. As Following asleep while I'm walking to my studio while I'm eating lunch, so I love having stories happening. But you know, music, wise... The the are things, you know, when I I listened to music more, and I so go to concerts and I I'll listen to stuff that friends make and, you know, I don't like hate music at all, but I just don't seek it out for creative reasons. So... But there are things from I guess when I was a teenager early twenties that I love... But I think it's more for kind of nostalgia reasons, you know, and it's it's like, a pet boys or queen or discovering playing S to Covid or Gerald Barry or Louis Recently when I covered that kind of stuff as here, you know, Studying composing and those things, you know, I've still will listened to because they may... I remember how exciting it wants to hear them for the first time. But I don't think I turned to them creatively. No. Okay. And what about visually? What about film? Was there anything, you know, did you watch a lot of film when you're were growing up? Was there anything there that sort of you really sticks out in your mind? Didn't watch masses of film. Was definitely some kind of, you know, much more music nerd. You, I was doing every night. I was doing a choir or a wind band or an orchestra. So I was, you know, plunge and that that became my kind sanctuary, and that was the thing I did was just, you know, tons and tons and tons of playing of different types and, yeah, I don't remember, you know, I I'm... I I love films and I... Love Tv. I have a, you know, I definitely see it sometimes. III want to try and be more ambitious with how I watch because every time I watch something, that I have in my head might feel a bit challenging or difficult. I'm always pleased I did and I don't know that re... I saw anatomy have a fall. Recently, and I... I think I remember like, w that heart wasn't in the mood and subtitles or something terrible like that. And, of course, it's it's unbelievable. And I just you know, loved it. And so it's a good lesson to remind myself to to push through the kinda comfort of watching some kind of nonsense which I really enjoy. If I call it Nonsense. You, I've been like old stuff from else likes. I've been enjoying slow horses and You know, did all the succession and and or I loved and all that stuff is all amazing. And but I traders. Was that? Traders. I... You know what I did the first traders. I haven't... I find I find awkward really difficult to watch. I find, like, sometimes I struggle with kinda of comedy, you know, those kind of bleak the office type come. And the first traders, I did watch it, but I terribly. I would just fast forward through all the sort of awful back savvy chats, which I know is sort of the stuff that Looking people love. I don't even know what bits. I like the stupid challenges. So I haven't worked the latest 1. Everyone, you know, seems to be saying it's amazing, which... Yeah. So I don't know Young. So young Tv. I don't remember. I remember Love them that you know, usual stuff, matrix and all that kind of stuff, but I don't remember a particular. Apart from just being a huge worse, I should do for everyone really, really pivot. Because I was very kinda sheltered and didn't watch anything thing and very naive and had no idea that films were meant. To kind of scare just that they were... You, I'd only ever seen kids films, and I remember in primary school going to a birthday party at Cinema where I think we meant to be going to see 1 of the super amend. So eighties. But for whatever reason, we could... It wasn't on or was sold out or whatever, and we end up wanting to see a jaws, and I just could not believe it. Like, I it just was such a immense shock that's a... To suddenly be, you know, blood and people were dying, and, you know, like how floated in the water? Yeah. You know, just like, oh, the the app so mind blowing idea that this thing was being, you, and all it been till end, had been, you know, never story and this lovely. So you know, care bears and, yeah, just happy happy memories and just like, oh my god. What is this? And, yeah. So that, So, yeah. Now I hate for I can't watch horror films. I'm basically, I'm really, I've really sometimes struggle to to Tell if something's good or bad, because I'm just in it. I really enjoy. I can really get stuck in the films and, Yeah. Which is... The nice thing, but that doesn't mean I can't watch anything scary. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm gonna I even get my head around watching Chores at that stage because I watched... Ghost blisters as a kid. Right. And that gave me nightmares weeks so much yours. Like, I think I didn't really watch any. I think I just sat. Whim with my, like, fingers of my eyes pretending to watch it. Yeah. Terrible. Yeah. But there's similarly I I, like, things struggle with. Horror films. Sometimes, I did I did force myself to watch mid summer. Oh, yeah. Which is amazing I had to watch it in 3 settings because it's so... I mean, it's not horror the in the sort of jump scare some things, but it's so sinister and so unnerving that I just I couldn't watch for some more than a 5 minutes at time. Yeah. I have to watch anything that I couldn't even... I definitely can watch miss zara, but anything even slightly scary. I have to sort trick myself back kinda half watching it. I sort of like, I've son sit and watch a weird place next to my television where do do a Jigsaw was he watch your little? Yeah. I'm kind of, like no blah, oh, there's something I don't my nose I'm fascinating and watching this this wall. My Cushions like next to the the tally because I'm... Yeah. I I just have to pretend it's just sort of like, in And Son is a small the screen the better. And, obviously, if you can get the signed out. Another 1 I remember really clearly was going to the cinema, with some friends to see, I can't think what it'd be. Something, you know, something great, like Bill and Ted wherever. And going to the loo and then accidentally walking back into the wrong cinema, and, you know, my friends were there by I thought, okay, maybe they've gone to low. And then just like, awful, terrifying wherever it be, I don't know, nightmare elm street starting. And say waiting for ages because, you know, thinking, maybe I don't know maybe I thought was a trailer or I didn't know if this a God test but darker than I expected or, and, to me about half an Hour to think. Okay. This is like seriously gone wrong. Keanu has taken really not aged well. And there's a lot more murdering things. Not more murdering terms. Those guys need to need to get some help. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So not not up for the the scary stuff. I mean, I don't know I could write there's even 1 very in Tuesday. I wouldn't even definitely call. There's nothing. There's no horror moments. It's just a slightly dark moment that I still even, I, yeah. I I find it hard to to watch even in the film that I've seen it a thousand times, you know, probably more than that, but still like, Yeah. Get nervous. The power of the power of it isn't it clear. Right amazing. Well, that's... That's probably a a great place to to to wrap things up. I do have some quick fire questions, which I like to finish with. This is where. So we go deep with the first 1 What's your favorite biscuit? Oh my god. That's a massive question. I'm just filling the straight the Ja cake. It's moist. Really? Yeah. Wow. So an appeal also, favorite is a is a J cake. She She's she's a clever woman. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna get shot down in this cake cake. Yeah. Exactly. But it's... There's... Is it a cake is it a biscuit, and this is something that, I've I feel like I spoken about too much in bond right now So... The second choice, those borders, ginger ones are covered in dark chocolate. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Very classy. But, yeah. I I'm moisture as I think I I seeking food, and I think a Ja. 1 of the soul biscuits that can really step up there. Yeah. It takes the moisture box, definitely. Yeah. What's a little known factor about you? It's Oh, wow, well, I'm currently doing ro... I mean, I to say this as it's a great passion. My my sister bought me roller disco roller skate disco lessons. And I'm doing lessons. Just now actually, I'm at Maddie. The chair are tell about. Who's in my band is doing that we're doing together. And I am so bad. So I'm, I'm really finding it extremely difficult. Maddie really good. I think she got someone lockdown iron and it's been, like, whiz around kitchen. And I... I'm... Yeah. As as soon as we start, I'm just dripping with terror sweats. Yeah. I think I thought it'd be, like, round around circles, or jive away, but no. It's like, tip tip up onto your... Onto, like, 2 wheels and then onto 2 the 2 wheels at the back of the skate, and Going backwards. And it haven't done backwards, but it it feels... It just... Everything feels like you're about... You're just constantly think that you're about to fall. And I'm trying to do that, and maybe maybe I won't... But okay, I'm trying imagine the end of this course where I'm gonna suddenly be like... Sort of jive round some rink and some some cool to roller autodesk, but it I feels just know that I'm gonna be staggering around sweating, But, yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment. So we can look out for you in, like a roller just go flash mob down at Trafalgar Square something in 6 months time. Still probably sweating and clutch onto to someone. I don't think I'm gonna... I don't think it's gonna work out well for me. But good fun. Right? Good. I mean, definitely good fun, great present, you know, and I'm no per with it even though I'm, you know, easily the worst. In the class. I think I thought it was gonna be a beginner class, and there's people like whiz around and 1 leg sitting... You know, sitting down on the floor with 1 leg vertically, the other leg in held up by their ear, you know, whiz around... Yeah. People doing that kind of shit, And I am bum out wiggling along sweating and wearing, just trying to stop peace. Try to stay up Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. It sounds good. It's funny because I was... Before Christmas, so over Christmas, I was looking at the... I was my 4 year old on Niece and I were doing some working on some disco moves. Saturday night fever, So we had a Youtube video at the Disco. And I was thinking like, I'd love to learn officially disco dancing, not rolling sports, but officially disco Dancing. So I was I was looking over Christmas certificate find any London. I haven't found any Yeah. I they're not. I think that'd be. There was a there's a couple of things weird things on Facebook, and they hadn't posted for a while. I didn't really properly look into it. It was a surface level You need just look like pineapple studios, you know, some kind of like dance. But you also maybe this is a problem as if it's too. Because you don't wanna go somewhere and some the whole thing would be full of 20 year olds or leggings on her. Who are amazing dancers. Yeah. And... Oh, yeah. That's that's that bad... Well, that's kind of... I feel is happening in my roller disco lesson. But, yes, it's it's kinda... It's definitely good to be doing something you've never done before. That's I think maybe I think maybe ge care home, lessons is probably more more my target type. But, yeah, next question other than horror movies. What scares you? Oh, okay. Lots of stuff I'm an absolute Jesse. But 1 thing that I have a very mixed relationship with is roller coasters where they really, really scare me, but I... They fat me as well because they scare me. And when I've done them, I feel so amazing. So I have this kind of odd relationship but I would like some kind of s porn addict, watch millions of Poe videos, you know, people who felt sales at the front of all the coasters. And I would just watch those, you know, sweating again, get, you know, imagining what's like to be in them. And so people go. Oh yeah. Great. Okay Wanna comment with us. We're going to thought partly like, oh, no. No. No. Like, I can. No. Just watching about Youtube. So, I get to get my thrill just watching Youtube. Yes. So I mean, I've been to quite a lot roller the coasters where I guess I, I'm giving this very mixed. Messages people. I thought you like roller coasters and and it's simultaneously this is weird thing where actually, I've actually broken into sweats. So fire here. And my hands are wearing. But where... So we and the band went to 6 flags and in in La, and we went on some of the coasters, which are, like, you know, about 10 times bigger and scary and longer than any coaster in the Uk. And it was that what you need to do is not know if happening. You just need to suddenly Right guys, we're going right now to the thing is billing. I don't have an dentist thing or something where the worst thing is knowing it's coming and you can sleep this night. So Anyway, I'm just... I managed to go on all the scary shit, but I was really in a sort of old quiet. Pit, you know, cycling myself at Mood day, and then eu, like I sort solved some kind of epic world problem by the end, Well, it... It's funny because it sounds like obviously, the the way beyond fear is to face it and push yourself through it, but it's almost like you doing that almost foster this continued. Sort of fair and dread it, but even though you are facing it and pushing push. Well you tell yourself, don't you that you do 1 roller of course done and you're like, well, yeah. But what if this next 1 is it really bad, you know? So I think you feel its challenges to do. And I make myself a it and this as all real insights into how deeply un fun I am, but I do them multiple times So I'll do it Right. Do it and then go back and do it immediately if I can, and then I get you anyone by the third time, sometimes you can let go and actually be, like, you know, screaming, and I must, you know, I was really screams the hallway way. Around these are hat, which is a sign that I'm it because otherwise, I'm just silently praying. But and better a scream than a. Right. That is that is true. I mean, once the once the the bombs are out, you know, it's time to go home. This guillermo. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And the final question and the quick follow questions round is, what advice would you give to you younger self? Time Oh, man. Oh, god. And I'm just... I'm just literally roller indexing a very dated reference through the regrets. I guess just doing, you know, just doing stuff anyway. Know, that's the kinda of answer. It's just like, you know, just do it and you you know, to keep doing noose, try and do things, not overthinking things too much, just you know, believe in yourself Atlanta, and do it... I'm trying to think of there anything else. Maybe I should have bought some kind of shares and something, ready. Goo for Google on Bitcoin. You should have invested in Bitcoin too. Called. I know. Yeah. I mean, I'm I've I've... I've god is just funny when you say that. I didn't I know this probably Some kind of whim cool thing about, hanging on to my my dark mart, but I just... Feel like... Yeah, the multitude of terrible decisions, but I think, yeah. Just try and have have fun with at all, as much as you can along the way. Have fun, get out your comfort zone. To get out your comfort zone. Awesome. Well, I know it's been a pleasure to chat. Thank you so much for sharing your creative, of process and experiences with us. And do you... Do you social if people wanna find you and and your music obviously are on spotify, but of where where else can people find you? I I do sometimes so sure. I'm Anna h Meredith. On Twitter and Instagram. Choice. Awesome. And anna I'm am. Thanks very much. Thank you for me. Thank you very much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, and given that you've listened this far, I feel you might have. And I would be honored and incredibly grateful if you could take a moment to subscribe rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. By subscribing, you'll automatically be notified time a new episode drops. And by rating the show, you tell the art of artificial intelligence that will soon be running the world that this podcast is worth listening to. I certainly get a lot of insights and value from these conversations, and I genuinely hope you do too. If you'd like to get in touch with the show, then you can email me, podcast music dot com. Lot music dot com is my digital ab, and the home of the podcast is live music dot com forward slash music at his podcast. And sync music matters podcast is hyphen. Thanks again for listening and until our next time.