The Becker's team is excited to announce the launch of our new CFO and Revenue Cycle podcast. Tune in for conversations with finance experts from the top hospitals and health systems. We'll discuss key trends and ideas to drive meaningful change in the industry. Look for Becker's CFO and Revenue Cycle podcast wherever you listen to episodes. This is Carly Beam with the Becker Spine and Orthopedic podcast, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by by doctor Philip Louie of Virginia Mason Franciscan Health. Doctor Louie, thank you so much for joining us. Before we dive into our main discussion, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background? Yeah. Thanks for having me on today, Carl. So my name is Philip Louie, orthopedic spine surgeon out in Seattle, Washington, Virginia Mason Franciscan Health. My practice is predominantly minimally invasive sort of spine surgery, but I also have a huge interest in sort of the big picture of, medicine overall and spine and musculoskeletal care and and just using social media as dissemination of information in what is now 2025. Yeah. And you recently announced on LinkedIn that you're joining Wharton's executive MBA program. And I was wondering just kind of why you decided to invest in this, why now, and what you're supposed to get out of this as a submission. Yeah. I'm actually really excited for this. And I think that for me you know, everyone has a a different reason to to get an MBA. Obviously, people have their opinions as to whether positions really need it or or should take the time to get it. But I think there's a couple big areas spurred me, and and one is, you know, I've always been interested in how we define value in patient care. I know the term, you know, value based care is thrown around quite a bit. It's a little bit of a buzzword, but, you know, I I think that no one really understands it from a broad and holistic standpoint. And and that's one of my goals. Right? On a broad level, right, like, how we determine value is gonna determine how we get compensated in the future, and it's gonna guide how we even care for our patients. And on, like, a very micro level, right, we're always trying to better understand all these new enabling technologies that are coming in. And we have to figure out, like, in our practices and our hospital systems and to our leadership, like, what's the value of this technology or what's the return on investment and being able to sort of start patching the the micro value systems to the macro value systems that guide what we do. And I and I think the second area that really intrigues me is that, you know, health care seems to lag behind in a lot of different areas. And I and I think that ultimately, we can learn a lot from the other fields that are a bit more nimble than what health care is, and especially in musculoskeletal and spine care where it's really important to understand, you know, how we can continue to do things better and what technology can help us be more safe and effective on what we do. Just just sort of growing the network and learning from others to think outside the box a bit better and hopefully drive the the field forward a bit more. Absolutely. So it sounds like this education will really help fill in some gaps that you might not have had a little while that you might have now. Yeah. And I think we we we struggle to find time in our lives to read or learn, and this is just one way to force me to take some time if if I really believe it's meaningful and to devote some time and energy to it and then actually learn it better. Yeah. And I was wondering if you could talk about some of the top business challenges that you're seeing in your work. I know you did mention about value and spine care, but are there any other challenges that you're seeing? And what's your approach to tackling them? I mean, I I think if you look around even, you know, what you all publish and what's being written in sort of the mainline journals and and online and social media. We all have a lot of common struggles no matter sort of where we're practicing or what setting we're in. I think one of the biggest ones we deal on a day to day basis is how do we learn to do more with less, essentially. You know, staffing is more difficult. It's more expensive than what it used to be, and and what we're asked to do is growing and growing and growing. So, you know, how can we be a a better steward of our resources and and be more effective with what we have and and even diminishing to do more and do better than how we did before? I think that's the challenge that we're all facing. I think a second challenge that we face is, like, as you know in health care, there's just a lot of different stakeholders. And I and I think we find ourselves arguing with each other all the time trying to get on the same page. And so whether it's, like, the insurance companies and hospital leadership and the physicians and other providers or the patients themselves in the industry, like, we all sort of want to do the right thing, and we just have to do a better job of communicating with each other and and finding, you know, again, what where where do we find the greatest value and drives our work, and where can we find overlap to move things forward? You know, regardless if a physician has business training or not, what's a business skill that all spine surgeons should know? That's a really good question. You know, I I think if you, you know, you have you've been someone who's sort of interacted with a lot of spine surgeons. We are really good at identifying problems and making that known. Right? We're we're just in our nature, we we just complain a lot. And we think we're really good at identifying a whole series of possible solutions. Right? But I think where we struggle is, you know, how do we take our identification of problems, and then how do we get to these solutions? Right? So, like, taking an idea and turning into something that makes an impact. I I think there's a set of administrative skills that we, as surgeons, tend to lack in that area, and it makes us seem like we are just loud and complain and don't understand the process. And part of that is true. And so I think we just need to do a better job of once we've identified the problem and once we've sort of singled out some potential solutions, really learning to take a step back and figuring out, well, how do I go from point a to point b, c, and d, and who needs to be involved? And and who's all these different skill sets that we need to learn as far as part of the journey from the start to the finish. It sounds like it really ties back to what you're saying, Bob, just that taking a step back, really taking a a big picture, look at things, and then taking action. Yeah. Yeah. Easier said than done. Definitely. Definitely. And you had mentioned, in earlier in this recording that you've been very you're still very engaged with social media. And I wanna ask, you know, in 2025, as all different platforms, their algorithms are changing, they sometimes, you know, in The US, you know, TikTok has faced a potential ban. I'm wondering how you're adjusting your social media strategy to the ever changing landscape. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's something we have to understand is it's it's always changing, and we always have to be willing to adapt. I think that's part of the fun aspect of social media. Right? There's no blueprint or textbook or curriculum that will teach you how to best utilize social media, and there's no right way to do it because everyone sort of has a different way of approaching it, and it has to fit with, one, you know, what your hospital system will allow you to do, but, two, sort of your own personality and what you feel comfortable with. You know, I I think for me, it's it's always been about, well, how can I better educate patients? How do I better engage with my colleagues? And because of that, we sort of find ways to adapt as a community. Right? So it's not necessarily me trying to jump on the next trend. It's it's me trying to see, okay. Well, if this is happening, how do I maintain this community that we've developed? Right? How do we, you know, educate in ways that we can reach more people effectively, whether it be one platform or another? And how do we sort of bridge everything together so, like, everyone's interest and everyone's goals are sort of being achieved? But it's you just gotta keep your eye on on what we're allowed to do, and that we know is changing a lot. I really like your emphasis on the community aspect of your social media engagement. I mean, at the end of the day, it is it does start with the word social. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's the fun part about it. Right? I if you look back at, you know, the things we've done and what other my colleagues have done, it's, like, we've been able to meet so many people that we might not otherwise have met along the way. And it really is sort of developing different communities that you find interest and that, otherwise, you would never have been a part of. Absolutely. And my last question for you, doctor Louie, what are three health care trends that you're following closely? Yeah. I think from my angles, you know, I'm still pretty academic, and we do a lot of research. You know, one area that we're looking at is this patient reported outcomes. Right? We we track these all the time, and it's interesting to see how different stakeholders are are using that now. Alright. Whether they're in insurance companies or even our hospital leadership has identified, hey. These are metrics that are really important where we are just trying to capture as much as we can sometimes from research purposes to better understand how we're doing. But I I think one trend that I'm really trying to follow is, you know, what are the most meaningful quality measures that are going to be captured so we're not creating fatigue in these surveys and that all these other stakeholders are getting the information that they need as well rather than, you know, putting patients through, you know, ten, fifteen, twenty minutes of surveys so that they can try to answer small questions for everyone. You know, a second area would be a very common area of sort of artificial intelligence, but the way I look at it is, you know, it's it's there. And whether you agree with it or not, you know, people always ask, well, is, you know, artificial intelligence going to replace you? I don't think that it will ever replace us fully, but I do think that surgeons and physicians who understand and can apply and and utilize artificial intelligence will eventually replace those that cannot. And so I I think it behooves us to really understand what is happening in the AI world and safely and responsibly trying to adopt these various technologies and these practices. And then we just need to do a better job of communicating to our patients and understanding where they feel comfortable because I I think we all know it's a wave that's coming, but we can do a good job of responsibly adopting it. And then the third area is sort of tied to my first, and that's you know, there's so much focus right now in the financial health care landscape and cost arising, and we need to help more people, and we just need to do more. We have all these goals and targets. But we also have to remember, like, we have a responsibility to sort of train the next generation and sort of continue to contribute to our body of knowledge as a field. So, you know, it's something I'm keeping my eye on and as, you know, as as the financial landscape in health care changes a little bit, you know, how do we attract people to, like, continue to innovate, right, continue to provide the best quality of care to their patients, but also dedicate time to train that next generation, whether it be undergrad, medical students, residents, fellows, and be willing to, like, add to the body of knowledge. Right? Like, I I think doing all four of those things are gonna be really important to not just sort of providing care as it is now and in the future, but kind of pushing the field forward. Yeah. And I just wanna ask a quick follow-up question. Very simply, are you nervous or optimistic when you think about the next generation of spine surgeons? I am cautiously optimistic. Right? I I think that when we face a lot of struggles, we are forced to innovate. And I think that if you ask a lot of spine surgeons, you know, their perception of the current state of spine care, musculoskeletal care, a lot of people will answer, hey. We are at this point that changes need to happen. And and I think that's where my optimism arises from is that, you know, this is, like, the perfect breeding grounds for innovation right now because a lot of us feel like our backs are are up against the wall. But it is still a bit cautious because you can't just wildly take uncalculated risks. Right? And in our world, anytime you innovate, there's always some cost. And and, you know, that cost can be a financial cost, but could it also be a a cost in the safety or the effectiveness of the care that we're providing? So can we sort of innovate responsibly in the future? I really hope so, and I think we can, but we just sort of need to, you know, come together and do it the right way. Yeah. Sounds like a very, very mindful type of cautious optimism from what I'm understanding. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, doctor Louie. It's been a pleasure speaking with you, and I look forward to connecting again in the future. Alright. Sounds good. Thanks so much. Thank you.