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So my name is Kurt Frankem and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 02/2010. It was just a hobby blog and it grew from there. By the time, 02/2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some, traction and took off, 02/2016. We became a five zero one c three nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about, sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, k. I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. Alright. You're in for a treat on this How I Lead interview. We talk with John Holdaway, who is the president of the Seoul, Korea Military District. And, boy, with that comes all sorts of unique dynamics and turnover and people moving and coming and, you know, people serving as branch president for six weeks and or shorter. Right? And there's so much to learn here. And John just himself with military background, and he he has so many phenomenal leadership principles. Big shout out to Cash Hills who, simply simply sent us an email and said, hey. You had a talk with John. I know he's on the other side of the globe, but let's make it happen. And so it was 7AM for him. It was 3PM for me, and we got it recorded and, through the miracles of the Internet and technology. So a few things to listen in here. Just the concept of revelation and making revelation a priority in your leadership journey. I think it's just it feels so elementary at times, but it's it's crucial. Sometimes we forget about it in the hustle and bustle. His his motto to do something as a leader, sometimes we can just get in the rut of meetings, but, the way that he inspires individuals, other leaders that he presides over to do something is awesome. And then just ministering to individual branch presidents, elders, corps presidents, relief study presidents, making sure that they're okay. You know, you have to make sure that, sometimes people just lose themselves in this calling, not not in a good way to find themselves, but to lose themselves. And and it really, creates some some tension and some mental health concerns. And so just the way that he is always mindful of of how to you know, the the leaders that he is ministering to, I think is powerful, especially when we talk about these these district level level or these stake level callings, is always be mindful of just how the leaders are are doing are really doing. Because if you ask them straight up without digging further, they're just gonna say, oh, I'm fine. No. Don't worry about me. We're we'll handle it. We'll figure it out. Right? But we gotta take care of our leaders. Right? So there's so many more principles. We go an hour. I was shooting for thirty minutes, but, you know, there's no rules here on leading safe. I'll go an hour if I wanna go an hour, and you will appreciate it. So here's my interview with John Holdaway, the president of the Seoul Korea Military District. Alright. It's the afternoon for me, but it's the wee hours of the morning in Seoul, Korea. I'm talking with John Holdaway. How are you? Doing great. You know, getting up early is okay. I think, this is it's a wonderful nightmare. That's great. Now, you're you're originally from Pleasant Grove, Utah. So how how does a Pleasant Grove, Utah kid end up in Seoul, Korea? I have no idea. It's, it's been a long trail that's involved Germany and Washington, DC, and I've been trying now since 1998 to get back to Utah. The The Lord just keeps throwing me further and further away and said you need more to learn. So, yeah. Yeah. Here I am. So is it a a military thing that takes you there or a business? Or Yeah. I am a a DOD civil actually, department of the army civilian here in, Korea with US Forces Korea. And so I I support, the the military operations here. Nice. Awesome. Is but you're you said you're a a a civilian, like a contractor type thing? So you're not did did you ever do time in the military? Or Yeah. So I did eight years active duty military and, was an army JAG officer. I originally actually started with the Utah Army National Guard there in Provo, as an intelligence specialist, learning how to interrogate people and ask hard questions. And so that made a a natural fit to being a lawyer, and so I spent eight years as a JAG officer and finished up in Germany. And we were gonna have our our family in Germany. It was a wonderful experience. And then, spent a little bit of time in private practice in Los Angeles, and then, realized I wasn't very good at that. And so came back into government service as a civilian, and spent, about fourteen years in Washington DC. I originally served my mission here in Korea. I met my wife here. She's from Los Angeles. I'm from Utah County. We met in Korea as missionaries, came back, dated, and and, but our love is here in Korea. So when this job I have I mean, now opened up, it was, a wonderful opportunity to come back and and be here. So I bet you're just having a, like, a wonderful time with speaking Korean and and reminiscing about your mission. And What's great is is that, we met, their Seoul temple up is up in Seoul, and, there's a church building next to it, the Sinchon Ward. And, we were both besides her district leader in that ward. And, it was so we every time we go to the temple, we had to kinda pinch ourselves. We may have gone up to the room, which used to be our district meeting room. We may have sneaked a kiss or two now that we're married. Nice. Yeah. But, we so we it's just it's just wonderful to be back here after thirty some odd years. Kinda wander the same streets we used to wander. Yeah. So how long have you been there on this stint? Five years. Just the my fifth anniversary. And is there, do you know how long you should be there, or is it just Well, yeah. You've read the news. I think for civilian employees in the federal government is a little, a little shaky right now. Yeah. You never know. But, I I've always taken I you know, I'm I I, I love people who can plan their careers out and say, this is what I wanna do, and they go get it, and they really plan their lives. I've never been that way. I've I've I've tried to do that and it's never worked out right. And so at some point, I learned to, like, let let literally, it's a revelatory process. Let the lord lead you where you want to go when you find that he'll put you in places and to do things. And and then when the next it's time to do the next thing, you'll know when it's time to move on and go do the next thing. And if you're if you really are faithful to that, let them already lead you. Your life can be an adventure. You find yourself in Korea, not I if you don't mind, I tell a story about how we ended up here. So I was working as a civilian, attorney at the Defense Intelligence Agency in DC. Most of my career has been in the intelligence field. And, I was pretty good at what I did and and really enjoyed it and was tracking to become the senior executive. And my boss had created a position for me in the agency, but you have to apply for the job they want you to do. So he says go online and apply for this job. You'll be you're the candidate for it. We really want you to to take a shot at this. I'm on the website that has all the federal jobs, and I'm scrolling through it. And right above, the job I was supposed to apply for was this job in Korea called the special adviser to the judge advocate, senior civilian attorney. It it you get you're in the thick of everything here, Korean and United States relations with Korea. And I thought, well, I don't really know how how to do that job, but I'll give it a shot. Come to find out the the decision authority, the senior attorney here, was an old friend from my master's program. We were, classmates at National Defense University. And, when he saw my resume come across the, his desk, he says that's the guy I wanna hire right there. And here we are. And it's interesting that, yeah, I've done great work with with, with the military here in Korea and involved in some wonderful things and, very, very high level things. But the opportunity to come here and be a district president, that's really the exciting part about being here. Get to do some really good work here. Yeah. So, yeah, you're currently serving as the district president. What what's the story behind being called to that? Well, so, middle of COVID and the previous district president, a wonderful district president, because of COVID and these issues, he couldn't come back and and so they needed a new district president and and the, area presidency by Zoom. And we we we embrace technology here. So because the district area presidency couldn't get here, we had had to do all the interviews for district president by Zoom. And so I interviewed and, elder James Rasman of the '70, felt it I guess, felt inspired to call me and, here we are. So and it's been a it's been a great ride. That's great. Now if I understand right from what, I think one of your is is Cash one of your counselors that recommended you? Yeah. Cash Hill is one of my counselors. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Trouble. Yeah. You know, he mentioned that, because I think, typically, when you're a you're a district president, you report to the mission president in the area, but you you report to Area 70. Is that right? Or the Yeah. Yeah. Area presidency? We are unique. There's only two of us that I'm aware of in the church where, we're not a stake or a district, but because of the way because of our our mission and who we support and serve and and the geography we sit in, we don't answer to a mission presence. So, we have I have stake by Keyes, our stake president keys for the most part. I'm not the senior high priest. I don't have a patriarch. But every other respect, we operate as a stake. And, at the time was, president Ballard had, given special dispensation to my district and then my counterpart in Okinawa, the Okinawa military district, to function as a state president. So I I call missionaries. I we do, you know, alive and down in temple records. We do all the things that a state president does, and have those keys, those special keys. Just there's a few things we just are we don't have to find because we're so transient. People are moving so people are still moving around so much in and out that the kind of things that we don't have, we really don't need because we're just so fluid and and, everything just moves so quick. So, yeah, when I got called, my my dad says, well, you're not quite a steak, but you kinda look like a steak. He says, I'm gonna call you a Salisbury steak. Not quite a steak, but close enough. Yeah. So, so so we've been operating under those keys. And and so because of that, we cover the entire Peninsula Of Korea from the DMZ down to the the Southern Coast. In fact, I I joke we have a branch that borders the DMZ, and I joke that branch president. Well, technically, we cover all the way up to China through up to North Korea. So if there were any, English speaking members of the church in North Korea, we would have, responsibility to minister to them as well. And so, so we really do cover the entire peninsula. But from the EOC down to the down to the the Southern Coast, there's every three missions. So I work with three different mission presidents, and, we have six branches. We have a serviceman's group, that cover all the way from the North Of Seoul all the way down to to Busan. And, it's so it it's a challenge. It's a logistical challenge to to oversee all that. It's huge. It's not like a, you know, a Utah County state where the state president can walk every reward in the in in the state. It's a little bit different of a challenge over here. Nice. Well, just for clickbait, I'm gonna, like, title this episode the the district president in North Korea and see he'll be like, what? There's The president may not like that, but yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So so yeah. So as far as priesthood lines of authority, I I I answered directly to my my file leader is elder John a McCune, the president of the North Area agent North Area president presidency. I've got a wonderful, Area 70, elder Darwin Halverson, who's a church employee in Japan, who who who oversees me, gives me correction and guidance when I need it. My coordinating council is not in Korea. My coordinating council is a special group. That's myself, president Francis, the Okinawa military district president. And then with the Guam and Micronesia district and state presidents, which is just fascinating to see that how the church is administered in the islands, and the challenges they have. And you really are we get appreciative for the challenges that we have here because it's nothing like the challenge we have down there. We may not have electricity or water or, you know, it's just a different different, way of living life down there. So it's it's great to to to, to associate with these brethren that are that are leading the church in their areas and see how they do things. Yeah. So this is a a military district so that does that assumption come that all your units are are English speaking? Yes. So so, you know, the history of of the military in Korea begins in in '24, really nineteen fifty to fifty three during the Korean War. And with that, like anywhere else in the world, with with military, you hit the church. And so a lot of great faithful brother had come over here during the war and and the gospel seed started being planted. But ever since that that mid fifties, we've had a a district here that supports the the large military presence. That presence has dropped off over the last twenty years or so, but we have, with the rise of the Korean economy, a great expat community. And so we are, we serve we serve and minister to, basically, the way the area of presence, he puts it, all non Korean speaking members of the church. We really have a stewardship for them and and support and sustain them. So, it's it's I would say, you know, again, I I haven't traveled a lot around the church, but I would dare say we're probably one of the most diverse stakes or districts of the church. We have our military members from The United States. We have a United Nations command here, so we'll have officers and members of the church from Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, and all around the world to come here. We have Korea has really, reached out to bring it in and and and, have immigration immigrate into the country, foreign workers. So we have a lot of Filipino saints here who work in various factories. We have, again, our our business folks up in Seoul. We have English teachers, these young folks that come to teach English, and they're coming from Philippines and Canada and United States. One of our branch presidents is from Mexico. His predecessor is from Australia. And then we have this really unique opportunity, when Liberia and West Africa had a civil war, the international community was asked to take in refugees from Liberia. And Korea, this is something they really don't do. It's a monoculture here that's really the world to them is is, it's been interesting as they they they increase their presence on the world stage. And part of that was is they accepted a handful of Liberian refugees, and of those, about 20 of them are members of the church. And so we support and sustain these African refugees from Liberia who have just horrific stories about what happened, and and, just the trauma they went through. But it's really our blessing to be able to to support and and help them. So we really have this interesting, weird diversity of members who have different issues, different challenges, different backgrounds they come from, and it just it it it enriches the our our service here. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. And so do you I I mean, do you interact with the the traditional Korean steaks Korean speaking steaks very much? Is or is it pretty pretty separated as far as, you know, interacting with them? We we try. We try really hard. It it's, is is I try to teach our folks on on our side, not that there are fences, but on ours from where we sit, is we're yes. We're yes here. And we we, especially Americans, can tend to be a little overwhelming. And so, so we have to remember we're guests here. This is their country, and and so we really wanna support and sustain the members here. But we do as much as we can. I have great relationships with the temple presidency because we're up there at the temple all the time. One of the stake presidents in Seoul is actually a former mission companion of mine. Oh, wow. And so, and, I always joke with him because I think of, you know, my wife was a missionary there as well, and I I always joke that I think he had a crush on my my wife. So, and, the other area seventies here in Korea have a wonderful relationship with them. Our young single adults, we really are trying hard to integrate our young single adults with the Korean young single adults. So we have these touch points with the Korean states. They're they're just really wonderful. When we have areas, authorities, general officers of the church come, we all gather together and and and get to that training together. So, yeah, it's it's we we have a small presence, but they're doing their thing. We're doing ours, and we just try to support each other as much as we can. Yeah. That's awesome. That's great. And then, Cash also mentioned that your there's the transient nature of your district that, you've not had a branch president stay longer than nine months. So you're constantly, changing some of those the the those callings that are typically seen as very long term callings. Right? What's how how does that work, and what have you learned just from managing a transient, district? So, yeah, we we don't talk in the church. We don't use the phrase talent management. We don't we don't talk about that very well. Right. I there's there's reasons for that. I I I Yeah. There are reasons for that. But but in a district where we have people moving in and out so quickly, talent management, succession planning, those kind of principles really become important because we have to develop the next generation who's gonna be probably next month. And so, we really do an effort, reach out to our young single adults and, like, what what you know, we we haven't have these leadership columns where we can train them because they may need to step up as people move out. And so, it it becomes a challenge. Right? Like, in the military, the summer, we have the summer cycle where, it's called PCS, permanent change of station. I'll use all these military terms on it. So we get this PCS season, and we have people just moving in and out, in and out, in and out. And so right now, it's February going into March, and, I'm, right now have up on my computer what I call my projected loss list. Of all the callings, I'm I'm losing five members of my high council, my executive secretary. I'm losing two branch presidents, couple of elders quorum presidents, counselors, and all of those organizations. I've got one branch that the branch president, the elders quorum president, and all the counselors are going away. So so you have to really think in advance. And then the other key is and this is kinda like my biggest leadership thing that I I I I I just caught and learned that this is so important, is you have to be revelatory. My wife taught me this when we first moved here. When we first moved here, we moved in our branch. She was called as the elite society president. She'd been here two weeks, and she's the elite society president. And COVID hit and we were in the middle of this this summer cycle and, she learned very quickly. She had to figure out how to how to how to fellowship and administer to the sisters in her branch. And the principle she learned was called love quickly. You just have to you don't have time to be in a ward for five years, ten years, and learn to get to know people over time. You have to get to know people very quickly. And so, on Zoom, she would sponsor these Zoom sort of speed dating, events with the sisters in her branch where you get up and people kind of move in rooms with each other and get to know each other, and you just have to move quickly. And because of that as a leader, when you're looking at callings, you have to get that calling completed very, very quickly. You can't sit, and wait for, you know, something to come. You know, you you have to go out and tell the lord, I need revelation now, and and he does it. I have great experiences here. One time, we had a branch president, wonderful branch president. He was doing an amazing job. He had very young children. In fact, I knew when I extended the call to him, this would be a challenge for his family. But I knew he had the faith and his wife had the faith to do this. And they were doing great, and the family was doing great, but then she, had a difficult pregnancy and their baby was born early and ended up in NICU and and I could see the stress. But I I went to him and I said, no. This is how not to do it. I said, said, you tell me when it's time for you to be tell me when when you need to ring the bell and and you need to be released. That that was the wrong answer. I was not taking care of my branch president. Well, I should've released him on the spot because he needed to take care of his number one priority, which was his family. Yeah. But he he did. He's not not present. I got it. I'm good. We'll we'll work through this. And then a couple months later, I'm in the temple and, I literally was walking down the hallway and I about fell over. The the the impression was so strong, release president Madsen now and then call this other brother to be the branch president. And I thought, wow. This is just amazing. Like, literally and so I walked out of the temple that day, called my counselors. We we had a, we, you know in our next presidency meeting, we sat down and prayed and, boy, we received that revelation very quickly, and we moved out within a week. As soon as the as soon as the air presidency gave us the the heads up, to to to make the change and gave us the authority to do that, we moved out very, very quickly. And so, you have to be constantly revelatory and have faith that when you receive that prompting, you move out. Another another great example is, I was a counselor to the previous district president. And so as I council, one of the things he really wanted was a a a social media specialist for the district. And, and so okay. So we put it on our tracker. This is where we're tracking. We need to find somebody. And so he says, okay. As you go out and visit the branch the the the different branches, be prayerful and let let's let's kinda find somebody to fill out. Month months went by, we just could never find that person. If I'm in on the district president, hey. This is a priority. I agree. We need to have a social media specialist. And we prayed and kept thinking about it and kept thinking about names. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Eighteen months later, I'm walking into a branch and there's this new brother and his family, navy, navy officer. And, and I introduced myself to him and I I felt inspired to ask him, what's your experience with social media? He says, oh, I was the social media specialist in the world I just came from. And, I almost called him on the spot. I thought, no. It's a process. We'll do the process. And, so we went through the process very quickly and, yeah, he was called as our social media specialist. The lord provided the individual that we needed when we needed it, and we just had to be ready to receive that revelation to know this is the individual you need to call. That is so key to how we do leadership in the church. Yeah. And with that process of being revelatory and it sort of being in that state of mind, is there anything else that comes to mind if you were to coach or mentor somebody who's sort of beginning to understand, you know, or beginning to experience these leadership experiences. Is there anything else comes to mind of how to effectively do that? I think, yeah, I think part of it is is is, you have to have faith that it's gonna work. So revelation is tied to faith. The the the brother have always taught that, first of all, is that still small? But if if if if you have to really listen. And then when you feel that that that first inkling of, hey. Maybe this is the direction to go, You can't discount it. I I remember stories that president Monge used to tell about, you know, going and doing ministering to people. And and when he get that prompting, it could be a small prompting. He moved. He executed. And that's that where you have to move and execute. Now have we been successful? We we feel we received a prompting to to take it for a particular direction, go to a particular direction, extend particular calling. Has that always worked out? No. It hasn't. Yeah. I don't know the mind and the will of the Lord. I remember we extended a call to a brother to serve on the high council. We thought this is perfect. This would be good for him, good for us. He had some some special skills he needs. And it just happened to be that president Hill was in the room with me when I extended the calling. And, shortly in extending that calling, it was pretty clear we should not be extending him this calling. He had some other things to to to to some other priorities in his life that he needed to focus on. And afterwards, I kinda had a little soul struggle about, well, wait a minute. We felt so comfortable. We prayed about this. We felt this is the right way to go. And so I don't know the reason why. I can only surmise that maybe it's because he just needed to know that he was we loved him and that we considered him worthy and and capable of his calling, but it's just not the right time. But it helps build his confidence and to help solve the problems he had to know that, yeah, I could have had this call, but I I can't right now. Who knows? But you have to go with faith that that that that that that the lord has a plan for for us and for the members that we work with, that whatever decision we make is the right answer. Actually, it's it's not always gonna work. But but let let the world react. Another great example was when I was a state government's president, we had, planned this huge, youth, weekend. We're gonna be renting buses and we're gonna go up to New York. This is where I was in Annapolis. And we were gonna go up to New York City and we're gonna go to the Statue Of Liberty and do family history genealogy stuff, genealogy thing. And the night before we were supposed to go and move 200 youth to some New York City, the bus comp company canceled on us. And Oh, wow. It it was ugly. It might I I switched from state government's president mode, lawyer mode, and my kids still talk about me standing in the parking lot of the church yelling at the bus company in my lawyer voice, Freddie. Yep. Yep. Sure. And, of course, the area, area 70 says, well, we'll take a much more, you know, basically Christ like attitude for dollars. Good lesson, Warner. But, the next morning, we show up at five in the morning. We're supposed to leave. We have 200 youth, and we were supposed to do something with them. We planned all this. What do we do? And and we as leaders, not with the state president and and young men and women leaders, what do we do? And we threw together a youth conference in ten minutes. And, of course, the youth were disappointed, but we we, you know, sister so and so said I can do this, and brother so and so I can do this. We did a a scavenger hunt through the Downtown Annapolis area, just to get the kids out of the building, and we ended by about noon or 01:00. We ordered some food in and and and and while it was stressful for the leaders and especially the poor sister that had organized the whole thing, if everything had fallen out, you know, it would have been pulled out from under her. She felt like she failed, but she didn't. It the the youth walked away with a massive spiritual experience. The the testimony meeting afterwards that were born by those youth that said, oh, we can do hard things. We can adapt and overcome challenges. And that became then that they're going from family history to adapting and overcoming challenges. And and by example, showing that we could do this youth conference, that it really touched the lives of those youth. So, you know, you get this you see you see the Lord is taking you down this path, and he'll go, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. We're gonna go this direction instead. Now walk with me. And it's amazing what sort of experiences you can have. Yeah. For sure. And, you know, speaking more about just that, revelation and that process of receiving revelation, do you feel like because, naturally, with the Transient District, do you have certain constraints that are just they're inconvenient, but they are what they are. Right? Yeah. Someone gets transferred, you needed to, you know, figure something out really quickly or this youth conference example. Mhmm. Do you kinda feel like sometimes you know, I I guess, like, where I'm good, you know, some I worry some leaders walk around waiting for that temple experience like you described that where revelation over. And I've had similar experiences. But do you feel like sometimes you just gotta make the call? Yeah. No. That's that's exactly right. Sometimes you gotta make the call. And you and that's why that's why revelation is tied to faith is is that but I will tell you in every instance where we have needed to make a quick decision, we've had taken it to the wall. We don't just you know, we're not just making off the cuff decisions. Hopefully, we're not. And, and so we do use pay time, and you you you seek the will of the lord. And and and, you know, every time I've done that, I have felt the confirming spirit that this is the right thing to do. So you just have to do it. You have to do it in time and you have to give the Lord space to talk to you. He will respond to you or you'll get that super thought. You're like, okay. Maybe we just need to wait. It's rare, but from time to time, we've just said, yeah. We'd like to move now, but we just can't. And so, you have to do that. That's revelatory as well. But, yeah. The other challenge with this is that, because a lot of the the you know, again, we we kinda focus on calling, that's kind of the big challenge, is that most of the callings we deal with are keyholder callings. And because it's two hours either direction, three, or train ride, or yeah. You have to schedule things out. So you have to think long term planning and build in space. That's why, like, I've got my June callings already mapped out because it it can be key the, the question I always ask my executive secretary is, where do the keys need to be this weekend? Where do I need to be to be able to execute it and and exercise my keys to bless or to do whatever it is I need to be doing? And then that's again, that's another revelatory process. It's just to say, where do I need to be? And, and so, you know, I I there's an elder corps president we need to call here soon. And so, he's a military soldier, and so he's off in the field. And so we're trying to time it when he gets back out of the field. I can meet with him on Zoom to access issue the call. And then when do I have a weekend that I can go up? There's about two hour drive north of here to go then and set him apart. And then he'll be here for for four more months, and then he's gone. Just another reason we need to move quickly so he has the keys to to to to exercise in his column just for that short period of time. Yeah. Wow. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Is there anything to, like, with these, like, you know, four months or whatever, the short period of time, like, a lot of these callings you know, I'm serving as an eligible president right now, and, you know, I think it's been six, seven, eight months now where I'm, like, I'm still kind of unfolding my vision. Right? Yeah. Is there anything to, like, just getting finding momentum? Because I I hate the feeling of that person has to feel like they have to start from square one every every time a new person's called. Any any advice come to mind? Well, that's a that's a loaded question. Momentum's hard. Yeah. Momentum is really hard, especially where we do so much turnover. That so that's why we pick up some some, some principles from from from the world about, you know, mark marketing yourself. What I'm really into mission statements and vision statements. So at least you can put a marker on the wall to say, this is kinda where we think we need to go. And so we base it in, you know, we start with the with the work of salvation and exaltation. And so, when I was a counselor, in the district presidency, the district president wanted a mission statement. So drafted a great mission statement, still our mission statement today, and it really talks about, you know, helping members along the covenant path, and helping them build a relationship with their heavenly father and their spirit Jesus Christ. And then from there, we went with that's that's kind of the direction we wanna go. And then we look at, okay, then how do we do that within the work of salvation and exaltation work? Are we focusing on our youth, the rising generation, missionary work, temple work, you know, inspiring and bringing joy to the saints and then helping those who have needs? We focus on those five areas. And then from there, it's like, what are we what are then the things we're doing? How are we implementing that? Well, we have the gathering place. We have, you know, YSA programs. Well, you know, make sure we have youth camps. All the different programmatic aspects to support back to that vision of of people on the covenant path. And if if you keep that organized in your mind, then that will help help you okay. Am I doing something that fits in that framework? If not, then we're not gonna do that. We're gonna strip that away with the time. And so I think if you keep that framework in your mind as a are we moving forward? Is the covenant path is such a great metaphor. It's such a great image, because it's you feel like, okay. Are we moving forward? As an elders quorum president, I I teach branch presidents and elders quorum presidents is we're always asking what's next, in the lives of the member. It could be enhancement. It could be going to the temple, do renewing temple recommends or maybe they haven't had a temple recommend in a while. It could be a call in. It could be just maybe they need to speak in church or teach a lesson. What is next in the life of that individual, that one? And so that's, I think, the high how you build momentum. It's just that slow incremental steps in the lives of individuals. Yeah. No. I love that. Really helpful. Speak to me about the principles as far as how you go about following the profit and kind of aligning your your mission statement or your efforts with with the profit. Yeah. I I think it's and, again, I've learned this over time. I I I don't have any magic to do this, but but, really, in the last couple of months, it's really come clear to me that that we need to have all of our planning and discussions focused on these priorities. So so, for example, when we do our district presence meeting, we have a slide chart that kinda guide us through our agenda. And I'm changing all that up so that every so we're gonna have we call it the military court, and we'll have, like, four different boxes on the slide. Well, we're gonna have five boxes on the slide, and those five boxes are gonna be the rising generation, missionary work, temple work, welfare, and and increasing joy in the in our in the saints. And and everything we do, we talk about it. It's gonna have to fit in one of those things because it's all about those priorities. It's all about teaching how to make covenants. It's all about, focusing on helping members down that path individually. So that that path is a long spread out thing. So you have to focus on the the those priorities so that we're all moving together, at at the same pace. We're moving at the pace that the Lord will have us go. I think as long as we focus on those, that work of salvation exaltation, the the the brethren have. You go to if you go to the leadership training from the last couple of general conferences, it's all focused on on those core principles, on focusing on those simple basics of where are we, where we headed to, in those different five areas of the church. Yeah. And I imagine you really can customize the needs of your area within those Yeah. Those five areas. Right? Yeah. And every branch I'll tell you, every one of our branches has a different is a different culture. They all have you think, well, we're all too much of military people, but I've got one branch. It's all mostly air force people, and and they've got challenges and things that are going on and they're kind of isolated and they do their thing. I've got sole English branch where I have very few military people, and it's English teachers and and and foreign workers and and they have a challenge. And so as as we each branch, as we focus on the one and the uniqueness of the one within those branch, these these different cultures arise and every branch president, every elders horn president, leaf side president has these wonderful challenges to figure out how to implement these principles in their branches. And the idea of keeping it very, very focused at a very high level allows then you to to then delve into the one deeply with that one because how how the gospel applies to the one might be a little different how the gospel needs of of the one Mexican. And so you you give them that flexibility to to do the one. I've been impressed as I've gone to branch conferences. We do branch conferences. I we we have an hour long branch council, and I'll take half an hour. If they run me a half an hour, branch council, I wanna see how you guys function. Uh-huh. And I tell you that water is getting the end of the row. I'm impressed by these these leaders because it's about the one. It's like, okay. We'll talk about calendar, blah blah blah blah blah, and that's all done. And it's like, okay. Sister so and so, she has this challenge. What do we have to do? How can we help them out? And it's like, well, the primary can help out here. And we decided, of course, is helping out over here. Maybe the the elders form. And you see and, of course, they ask the question, what's next for this individual? What do we need to do to help them along the path? And and it's it's it's a miracle to watch a branch council just move and and and and and and counsel together and and just to watch that magic of of seeing lives change because of the efforts of of a of a functioning absolutely. Yeah. You can't you you just can't you can't do that anywhere else in the world except for these very sacred spaces. Yeah. For sure. So and do you find yourself that you're kind of after that that thirty minutes, you're maybe giving feedback, coaching on how this was done or that was done? Or Sometimes. I I, earlier on, we had a branch that was the branch council was struggling, and there was some dysfunction on the branch council. And so we would we would take time to address that. I think we've gotten through that, and we and and we've improved our training and our ability to minister to key leaders in the branches. And that helps out. So now when I do my thirty minutes, we're talking about these principles. I have I take we talk about the the district mission. We talk about the priorities, the prophetic priorities, and we talk about the things we're gonna do to implement them. The final piece, so I I want that we we talk about and I I got this, so my my mother's a Swiss immigrant. Her family immigrated from Switzerland in the fifties. Her uncle was elder Hansby Ringer of the '70. He stayed and served the church there for many, many years. And so she was saying, hey. Go into the gospel library, into the church history section, and there's this great area called gospel story that they get where they break down every country, and you can see the lives of the saints in each country. It's amazing. Every member should go there and see where were their families from to to go see that. She says, you gotta go to the Switzerland section and see about your families all sitting in there, about stories. And so I'm reading this story, this this relief society president. She's a state police society president, and she's, doesn't know what to do with her calling. She feels like, how do you do this? And then state president Ringer taught her this principle. He says, do something. He says, if it's wrong, you'll learn from that. If it's right, you'll rejoice in it. He says, never do nothing. Do something. And so that statement has hit me like a ton of bricks. That is now one of that goes now into this overarching way we look at the world. And the key for all of you is is we don't have time. Do something. And guess what? If you I've I've made many at my leadership, various colleagues in the church, I've done some dumb things. I says, but I've learned from that. You've learned from that. The lord teaches you. You look at we're gonna do this in doctor covenants this year where you see, you know, Joseph make mistakes and you see Martin Harris, and we're just going this right now with section 19, is that the Lord gives leaders space to make mistakes and to learn from them. But if you're doing nothing, then nothing is gonna happen. You must do something. And so I think that's that, you just gotta be in there. Just do something. It's it might be five minutes a week or something. There might be something major where you're giving a lot of time. Just do something, and, you'll find that the Lord will walk you through it, and and you'll have a great experience. Yeah. I love that, especially in a, faith tradition with with a lot of meetings at times. Right? Sometimes it feels like we're doing something by counseling and talking. Of course, that's all important, like, you've already articulated. But sometimes it's like, alright. Well, we gotta come to a decision. We gotta what are we doing this week? You know, what how are we gonna what's the next step type of Yeah. Approach. Right? Yeah. No. I'll I'll I will I will caveat my do something, like, do something doesn't mean more meetings. And so Right. Exactly. I I, this is this is something that I really it it's just a me thing. I I hate presiding in a meeting where I feel like we've just spun our wheels and I've not given these leaders something. You know? Now now here's how we do it here. Right? You you were probably in a state where the state president has a high council meeting. Everybody shows up because they gotta get their white shirt and tie, they got it dressed, and, like, at seven in the morning on a Sunday, they gotta go show up somewhere. We don't do that. We we do everything on Zoom. I think, it's rare that my district presidency will be in the room at the same time. I've never been in the room with the high council. But two, three times a year, we'll get the whole district council together, because I just gotta have FaceTime with everybody. We just have to do that for that muscle memory. But it's rare that we do that. So, so but even then, if they're just walking out of their bedroom throwing on a white shirt and their pajama bottoms on, I still owe people a quality meeting where they have to walk away or we've done something. And so to me, that is just so critical as a leader is if you if you if you don't give people something to walk away from and and to inspire them and teach them, they don't have the meeting. Yeah. We we can make decisions. We have a chat room where if there's a decision we need to make, we'll just talk about it in the chat room, and we'll receive inspiration in the chat room. I don't need to have the meeting just to to figure something out. So, and I've got a great member of the high council. He's a senior army leader, and he's my he's my sounding board. He's my feedback loop. And after every every district council or high council, I look at him and go, how do we do? And so Yeah. Yeah. And, I you know, if he says, hey. Look. You know? It kind of you know? I get the feedback that, hey. That was kind of a waste of time, and we shift and we adjust and we learn from that because I don't wanna waste people's time. We just don't have that time to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And I I love that just how you frame it in the context of of presiding, which we use that word so much in our in our faith, you know, in meetings and things. And, you know, I've been that stake presidency member where it's like, I just showed up here. I mean, I'm presiding, I guess, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything. But to really reframe that, like, no. You like, you you own the meeting now. So this is up to you to make sure quality is happening here. And if there's a better way or, you know, less of a burden for those participating, well, then maybe you should consider that. Right? I mean, we could still involve the spirit and have revelation and move move the work forward. Now now let me tell you a a a a thing that we've implemented here. I learned this from a great bishop back at Fort Meade, Maryland. He was a he's a army officer, and he ran his bishopric like an army unit. And in a and, oh, no. It was good. It was really good. And he taught me some In a good way. Yes. Yeah. So so in in a military unit, let's say it's a brigade, you got an army colonel, and he's got a staff meeting. He doesn't run the staff. He presides at the staff meeting. He doesn't run the staff meeting. He has an executive officer who walks people through and he looks at everything and says, hey. What are you doing? What are you doing? You know, he walked through all the reports. The executive, the number two of the deputy commander runs the meeting so that then that colonel, the boss, can watch. He can see, he can watch the dynamics, and he can get as much as army colonels receive revelation, he can get that idea that he can let the let the ideas flow so he can lead. He's not spending his time on running the meeting. So this bishop used to do that. His first counselor would run all the meetings and the bishop would just sit there and watch. And then when he spoke, it was that he what he brought to the table because he had he'd sat there and had had digested everything and he was happy with his laboratory experiences. So when I became district president, I said, we're gonna implement we're gonna do that. So every meeting we run, one of my counselors runs the meeting. The agenda is set up by the executive secretary, and and that gives me space as a leader just to kinda watch. So that when I have to say something or weigh in, now it is, you know, I I'm now using my keys rather than just spinning my wheels. Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, if we need to track down that bishop, but and I love that just that, you know and and Liz Wiseman, who I've interviewed a few times, she's done a lot of research, just about, like, being an accidental diminisher and running meetings. And and she talks a lot about this where a a leader can lead out, you know, in a meeting, and suddenly, it's sort of a vacuum in the Yeah. You know, why don't you just make the decision, and we'll just, you know, nod our head and agree, and we'll move on. But to really have that spirit of counsel Yeah. To somehow, you know, remove yourself from the meeting while it unfolds and then reinsert yourself. Yeah. That is critical. Absolutely critical. I I I've told any any presidency I've been in where I've been the the the, you know, state young men's president or a bishop or or now in this calling, I've always told my counselors, your job is to game up against me. I want you two to to work together, be a team that counterbalances me in any and and and and helps me be a better president. And I think and then I do the same thing with the high council and and the district council. Your job is to help me, you know, help move me and and guide me. And, of course, I'm just you know, I've got the keys and and I'm presiding, but, you know, you take whatever I'm supposed to do and then it exponentially grows by all these people that are kinda helping this thing move along. We had a wonderful district council just this last Sunday, and we had a topic on the table. I I I have to go back in my notes and see what it is, but but but it was just a little issue we wanted to talk about. I think it involved probably something with the youth and and, boy, people had opinions. And it was great. And it was great because then I just step back. I just kept my mouth shut and watch people kind of debate each other and have you know, it was it was wonderful. And I oh, I was I was talking about an issue that involves some people, and everybody had a a way of, well, I can do this. I can do this and this. I look at it this way. I look at it this way. And then I just stopped everybody. I said stop. I said, watch what you're doing. This is a council. Young women are giving input of what the young women are thinking, and the release of society is giving their input. And everybody's having a voice, and it's wonderful. This is how we should function as a branch council. You, I enable you. You have every authority to step in these meetings, and you tell me what you think. If we're just gonna sit around and, you know, just listen to branch the district president spout off, like, I'll send you a video. I won't I don't need it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Meeting. We have, we had a we we had a challenge. We our leaders were starting we have these slides and they put there what's going on in their in their in their stewardships. And there's a military, acronym called NSTR. Nothing significant to report. And, no leader wants to see that reported back. I have nothing to report. And so we said so so so that, like, my counselors put out the words into the district council. Don't don't you're not authorized STR on there. In the spirit of do something, put something in your heart. Since I made a phone call or, you know, I did this or whatever. Just that's part of that spirit of do something. Like, there's you know, you I know that there's things that are significant to report. You may not think they're significant, but for somebody else on the council, it could be significant. For me as as a presiding authority, that could be significant to me. So Yeah. Yeah. Speak up. Let us know what you're doing. It this is these are feedback loops for us as leaders in these councils to help us to know how we can do better. And and and great things happen as we speak up in meetings. And we as leaders create the space, get get ourselves out of the meeting, and create space for for those people to speak up. Yeah. That's great. That's great. And I think a lot of us, you know, I it's nice to be able to say to meetings sometimes, like, oh, I have nothing to report because you don't wanna, like, be a problem or inter do some more problems. Right? Like Yeah. Even I think of, like, the the church and the tools app or something or the you know, if there if you see something broken in a building, you can you can report it. And the way they frame the button, it says create an issue. And I, like, almost hesitate pushing that button. Like, I don't wanna create an issue. Like, I don't I I'll report a problem or report something broke, but I don't wanna create an issue. Right? So that's but to to really push people past that, they're like, no. Like, not not we don't need all your problems, but, like, what do you have to report? Good, bad, the ugly? Let's hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's let's move the work along forward. We we gotta do that. We gotta do that council together and do it together. So Yeah. Tell me about just ministering to, branch presidents, elders, quorum, relief study presidents. What does that look like? Yeah. So it is, I I think that that's really critical. We had elder Cook out here last year. He really he's just honed in for all of the state presidents. Like, you've got to take care of your bishops and branch presidents. It's it's that is so when I look at, you know, my ministering families, I've got six branch presidents and their wives, six elders, quorum presidents, their wives. I've got a wonderful stake relief society, district police society president. She's ministering to all the leading presidents. And so, you know, I look at it as as my job is to administer to them. When you're conducting any sort of a priesthood interview with somebody, the most important question the the first question out of your mouth is not about your stewardship and not about people in your in your you preside over. The first question that in ministry interviews or or priesthood interviews, the first question that should come out of any leader's mouth is, how are you doing? And what can I do for you? And what's going on? And it's amazing where as I've done that, you know, branch presidents have come into meetings thinking, well, I wanna talk about x. And I felt inspired, like, we're not gonna talk about x. We're gonna talk about you. And, and, because really the purpose of these engagements is I know what's going on with the branch. I know the challenges they're having for the most part. And I have the things I need to tell them that they need to know. But, really, get the chance to to one on one make sure they're okay. And and and the you know, they're struggling. It's they're busy. They've got their Yeah. Everybody in Korea is here for a purpose. The army brought them here. The air force brought them here. Their corporation brought them here. They're here to do one thing, and that's the thing that they're paid to do. And so, you know, it's a stress on them for them. Okay. I've got this other full time job as a branch president or elder corps president. And so we really have to make sure we're nurturing them. And a lot of times it's, well, are you using your counselor? How what can you do? What can I do to help you? What can we do to train your counselors? What can I do to train? I'm I'm really enabling a high council representative. Like, you have to go in there and make sure that that that those those those challenges are dispersed. As you disperse the challenges, it lowers the burdens on all the leaders. And so, so I think you just you have to constantly be in keep in mind, what are the needs of those leaders. I've got a young branch president who's in a very, very difficult job professionally. He's under the gun, and this is like a make or break time for him. And here I am calling him as a branch president. So, every time I'm with him, I put my arms around him, I hug him, I'd be you know, I've given him a piece of blessings. I wanna make sure he is taken care of, so he then can take care of the branch and take care of his career, which is a higher priority than his church call. Yeah. Interesting. And this leads another question that somewhat related I wanna ask. You know, when I think of military, I think of my my naturally goes to deployments and deployments to, you know, tough you know, experiencing tough situations that maybe lead to PTSD, to mental health concerns, and, you know, you talk about the suicide rate of veterans. It's just heartbreaking. And so do you do you find, like and I know that's not, like, every last person in military that's they're not constantly experiencing trauma and those things. But do you feel like there is an extra sense of something you have to be aware of, you know, serving in military units? Or not necessary. I mean, you're always because we've all been there. So we're all we're all we all know who each other. We all we all know the triggers, and we all know the you know, we we can see that. I'll I'll be, you know, not that in a % of cases it's this way, but to have the gospel of Jesus Christ in your life, already that healing power of the atonement already is is is a balm to many people who've gone through traumatic experiences. And so I think, the those who who I've worked with, that they already have that foundation in their lives that kinda helps ameliorate some of those problems. But, but it's just the the just the whole just the idea of stress in their lives is you have to just be be cognizant of the stress. You have to make sure you're working through and and not just overloading and be sent to, like, this this this brother we released. Now he's not military. He's a civilian employee here. But you just have as as ministering to them, you have to be cognizant of what's going on in their lives. And you can't just take this approach of God will provide. It's okay. You've been called and set apart and it'll gap. It's like, you you can't do that. You have to be willing to go say say assess and say, yeah. I need to give you space to work out some things. The other nice thing is is that on the military side, the military is so focused on these issues is that they're taking care of that for us. That we you know, if if one of my members has a a mental health or emotional health challenge, there's a whole network that's there to support and sustain them. And and I have great relationships with the chaplains here. I've got one of one of our brother here is a is a is a is a fairly mid he's a mid career chaplain, so he's got a great experience. And he knows when to come in and have out, whether it's a a marital issue or or just an individual having a problem. He speaks LDS. So as a chaplain and a mental health counselor, he's a great resource to say, okay. Yes. You know, brother, I need you to kinda help out here. And and and he's got a, you know, whole wealth of resources behind him in the army to help him do that. Same with the air force and and all of our other places. It it's, I mean, we have an we have a we have a a safety net for us that that's built in. Now where we where I don't have where nonmilitary members, it it's a challenge. It's a challenge. And and and and and and this is where the Korean side of the church and the non Korean side of the church where we kinda have have have difficulty working it up because how do you provide for example, you know, when you have somebody that comes to you with a pornography problem and you wanna get them into, an LDS focused pornography addiction process overcoming that. Well, I don't have anybody here that speaks English. And so they they have a great pornography addiction program here, but this is all done in Korean. And so, that that's a challenge and how do we how do we resolve it. If and I don't have an easy answer for that. It's just something we struggle with. Yeah. And I guess now that I think about, like, all things considered, they're almost better off being in that military unit where there's so many around them that have experienced similar things or they're like, hey. Yeah. I know I know what it's like to be deployed. I experienced something similar. Or, yeah. I know what it's like to, you know, live in a foreign country with my family and just the natural struggles that come with that rather than maybe just returning to a typical, you know, ward in The States where everybody seems like they're going about their time, but you're struggling. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting too. This is another this is another lesson I learned long ago. Used to be a calling, if you remember, high priest group leader, and I think I I I've had colleagues in the church that don't no longer exist. I think it's I was so poor at it that that Salt Lake says, put the hold away broke the calling in front of it. Again, I I used to be a state commission president. No no longer exists. I used to be a high priest group. It no longer exists. So, but at the high priest group leader, one day we walked into our class and and the previous people who use the room, we had our chairs were set up in rows. So teacher at the front, everybody in a row, looked just like a classroom. One day we come in and the chairs were set up in a circle. And, okay, we'll we'll do that. That class ended up being a therapy session for a bunch of old men. And it was amazing because they're looking at each other and tears were shed in that in that class because now we're looking at each other and what it cost. Lesson wasn't about the lesson. The lesson was about the experiences these brother were having and some of the challenges they were having. It it was a catalyst for having Relief Society, you need to be in a circle looking at each other. And so elders quorum and Relief Society become therapy sessions. It's group therapy. And and and and people can and and I've encouraged elders quorum presence. Let people share their feelings. That's what you need to be a facilitator for people to kinda work things out. And and you'll see a young brother with, you know, he's there. They're young married, first child, and he talks about the struggles he's having. And you'll have in there somebody who had four or five kids that are now adults and they've got great counsel and loving his support for them and they start ministering to each other. And so elders quorum really decided to become these great opportunities where when you have people and then, of course, our elders quorums is all military people. So they talk about, yeah, man. My my first sergeant's been getting out of here. I've got these problems at work and these challenges and yeah. I know what you're talking about, and they can kinda help more do that together. And I love it when when we can be therapists to each other. Yeah. No. It's it's powerful, and it seems so silly, you know, that you know, some people resist it so much that it's circling up in in the classroom. So much easier to kinda hide and let's just sit theater style and have the person talk at us, and that's great. You know? But there's something that shifts when you get in a in a circle, even smaller circles, and you naturally just open up. It really breaks down some walls. So Yeah. I I agree. I agree. Anything you haven't mentioned more about, like, delegation and teaching leaders how to delegate? Yeah. That's always a struggle. I mean, it's a struggle from the, you know, from the presiding authority because Yeah. You just you just wanna hold on to stuff. And and and it's it's ego. Right? I've I've I've, you know, I'm a lawyer. We we we're we're we're given egos when we graduate from law school. And, so you think I can do it better than anybody else. Right? I can do that. I'll just do it. It's easier if I just do it. And and but how are you gonna teach people to lead? How are you gonna teach them? I'm have I'm feeling the spirit when I when I serve in my class. I'm having a great experience and and and learning so much about that. Why would I deny that to somebody else? And so, I think you have to delegate. And again, it's it's a challenge as a leader where I know what my my councils are going through. I know what lives they lead. It's like, oh, you know what? I'm an empty nester. My kids are gone. I don't have to you know, I've got extra time. And, of course, my wife's like, no. You don't. And and so, like, instead of giving this task to to president, you know, my counselor, I'll say, oh, I'll just keep the task myself. And and that's, you know, that's not how it works. And then, of course, I've got 12 high councilmen. Let's give them the task. And and, you know, I I kind of this is a bad habit I have is I let members have direct access to me. My phone number's in the directory, and members it I I kinda keep things flat. Yeah. And then I'll get that challenge. It's like, yeah. This is not a challenge. I get it. Thank you for letting me know. But let's have brother so and so on the high council work through this issue. And you guys if if you need me to get engaged, I'll get engaged. So you you just have to it's just the leadership thing you have to be willing to delegate, and you have to be willing to let people do their callings. And you you don't wanna be overbearing on it, but let them figure the space out for how they're gonna do their calling. Yeah. That's powerful. Well, before we wrap up, maybe share with me the concept behind this principle of connecting leaders to the blessings of leadership. Yeah. This is this is president Hill taught me this. So if you go into, it's actually four four one. It talks about this principle of as you lead, you will the lives of others. As you see their lives be blessed, that the principles of the priesthood and this is this is 84 as well, is those blessings come back to you. And president Hill calls this the cycle, the leadership cycle, that as we serve and lead and as we do our best to bless others, god will bless us back again. And Benjamin talked about this, about our our eternal death to god as as we are faithful and obedient. God blesses us. That puts us in debt, but that inspires us to to be more obedient than god blesses us. We're always constantly in debt to god. That leadership cycle is just amazing because as you serve, then all of a sudden you see in your own personal life, you see alignment take place. And and you see, God working in your life, and you see how grace works in your life as you serve and help bless others. It it's this principle of of you lose yourself to find yourself. If you lose yourself in the ministry, it's amazing how that comes back in that cycle. So you connect leaders to that cycle. You want to connect to that idea that they lose yourself in service, and and you will find that that greater capacity. I teach branch presidents the the the principle of the loaves and the fishes. You know, when you call a branch president, they're like, I have no loaves. I have no fishes. How am I going to do this? And if if you have faith, you look at your time and your resources as loaves and fishes. Your calling as a branch president let me step back real quick if you if you don't mind. Is every leader I call, I I walk them through their priorities. And I say, your number of priority is your your relationship with your heavenly father and savior Jesus Christ. If you need to know what do I need to spend time on, that's your first priority, time priority. Your second priority is your wife. Your third priority is your children. Your fourth priority is your job, and then your fifth priority is your church calling. Now we've all been there. I'm sure you're, as an elder school president, have you, are thinking, yeah. I'm not balancing that out very well. I know I'm not. And so but what I found is is that as I go through this cycle of serving the lord, he creates loaves and fishes in my life. And I find greater capacity to be have a better relationship with my heavenly father and savior Jesus Christ, a better relationship with my wife, a better relationship with my children, a better relationship with my employer because I'm doing what I can, and I'm giving God the space to give me those loaves and fishes. So that's that cycle. That's what I like, we try to work with with leaders about connecting you to that to that cycle. And trust the lord will give you those loves and fishes. That's powerful. Love it. Really good. Well, John, this has been so insightful and just so interesting to learn, about leadership, but more in the context of maybe, you know, the the in places that aren't familiar to a lot of us, you know, being in a military, unit in in Seoul, Korea and and wow. What a remarkable experience. And, last question I have for you is just as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll tell you that by telling a story that that has, blessed me greatly. When I was in Germany, this is at the beginning of the wars in Iraq, called Operation Iraqi Freedom, number '1, '2 thousand and '3. And most of the brethren in our district had or our our, our stake, our stake over there, had left. And so I had several columns. I was, I think, at that time, I was on the high council and I was the gospel doctor instructor and and every and, of course, and and I was home teaching what we called war widows and happening with their families, which is a very stressful time. We were I was in Darmstadt, Germany, which is just south of Frankfurt, and the area presidency is in Frankfurt. And at the time, elder Craig Zwick was in the area presidency. His our elders quorum president, was, had been a missionary under when elders Zwick was a mission president. And so elders Zwick, whenever he had not no other assignment in the church on the side, he'd come to our branch. And and I was teaching god. I taught him gospel doctrine, several times. And and it's intimidating in a classroom and have on the front row a member of the quorum of the seventies who are trying to teach the doctrines of the church. And so I stammered my way through the lessons. But after every lesson, elders Wick would come up to me and look me in the eye with as the face of Christ is all I can say. That Christ like love. And he put his hand on my shoulder and say, put a hold away. That is the best lesson to I I've ever had on that topic. You did an amazing love. I love you. Thank you so much. How much was that? Ten seconds? That ten seconds changed my life every time you did that. And I think as we serve and as we remember that we reflect the love of our savior Jesus Christ. And as we look people in the eye, we we may not have the balm to heal everything in their lives. But if we look them in the eyes leaders and we, with testimony and with power, say, I love you. I'm grateful for what you do. The lord loves you. Keep driving on and do the best you can do. Let me know how I can help, and we will pray for you and whatever I can do to help you. Ten seconds. You do that as a leader, you will change lives. Connect them to heaven, challenge them to pray, and and and and you will see amazing results. And again, like this leadership cycle, and you will see amazing results in your personal life. Do something. If you screw it up, that's fine. The lord will walk and help you through it. If it goes well, boy, the blessings are just amazing, but never do nothing. And that concludes this how I lead interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this experience. And this is how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guy's doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the how I lead segment, reach out to us. Go to leadingsaints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see see if we can line them up. So, again, go to leadingsaints.org/contact, and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future How I Lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast. Remember, solve the burden of meetings by visiting leadingsaints.org/14 and getting fourteen days access to the Meetings with Saints virtual library. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the only and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.