Welcome to the GoodFit Careers Podcast, where we explore perspectives on work that fits. I'm Ryan Dickerson, your host. Today's guest is Paula Cole. Paula is the head of pension risk transfer with Nationwide Financial. Nationwide ranked 83 on the Fortune 500 is an insurance and financial services company that generates $32.5 billion in annual revenue with 25,000 employees. Paula started her career with Toys R Us as an HR and benefits manager. She spent 11 years with Aeon Hewitt, working her way up into a senior operations manager role. From there, she worked with Mercer, then legal and general retirement America before joining Nationwide Financial in 2020. Paula, thank you for being here. Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate the opportunity to sit and chat with you. I'm so glad to have you. Thank you for coming on board. So to build our frame of reference and to begin to develop our understanding of who you are, tell us a little bit about the work that you do today. Oh, I'd love to. So I am the vice president and head of pension risk transfer at Nationwide. And we acquire pension plans from private sector organizations that are looking to remove that liability off their balance sheet. So it's a great opportunity, a growing market. Cool. So interesting. And to help us understand how you came to be and where you come from, would you help us go all the way back to the beginning and tell us a little bit about what you were like as a kid? Sure, sure. Well, I like to think I was a spunky, you were a punctious kid, just loving life. My parents would probably say otherwise. But in general, I truly was. I found myself finding a knack for sports very early on. And it was the inquiry of what is everybody else doing and why am I not doing it that really brought me a sense of belonging in the sports that I love to this very day. So I was a soccer player for a very long period of time through college and even coached than thereafter. And then I played volleyball, I did cheerleading, I had a knack for sports. So I really would say I was inquisitive and I wanted to learn more and I always wanted to be involved. And so that has carried forward into my work life. I absolutely love helping people. I'm inquisitive. I like to be involved and I love to be part of a team. Did you have any sense when you were younger of the work that you'd end up doing when you hit your stride now in your career? Absolutely not. I'd like to say that I was an overachiever in terms of predicting what I would be doing when I grew up. But interestingly enough, I always thought I would be a lawyer, I thought I would be a doctor, I thought at one point I would be president of the United States in particular. And all of that has not happened, although the president role is somewhat-- Of course they're open. Yeah, it's somewhat where I think while I might not be president of the United States, my role in this organization is one in which I reside and preside over the profit and loss of a business line. So I kind of think I might have found my knack there, but I didn't. I really wanted to make sure I was ultimately helping people and I felt like those titles and roles when I was growing up aligned with those things that I would be doing, especially that president of the United States. And some of that played out in college when I had to think deeper about the curriculum. I had to think deeper about what my future outlook would be and so all of that needless to say change. I think a perfect segue here to talk about your education. Would you bring us along a little bit on what you studied and how you found your way? Yeah, so I when I said I'm going to college, I turned to my parents and said I'm doing this and they said yes, you are. And so when I first embarked on my undergrad degree, I said I wanted to be in communications. Again, kind of the I was a social butterfly, I was always involved in things and so communications felt like it was going to be home for what I wanted to do in my future career. Very early on, I think freshman year quite honestly, is where I said I don't know if I'm going to go the communications route. I think I want to go into sociology and criminology. And the reason I wanted to do both number one, sociology, this whole idea of how groups foster was really interesting to me. And then criminology, quite honestly Ryan, I'm a big SVU nerd. I love crime drama. I love books that are thrillers. So that really was like, it felt cool. It felt like something I can kind of figure out. And so when I figured that out, that kind of set up my pathway for what I was writing myself for in the future and sociology has really shaped my career trajectory, quite honestly. How interesting. And so from your education, would you bring us then along to how you landed your first proper full time job? Yeah, so I love this journey because my first proper job out of college, even though I did kind of retail, again a space clothing retail where I'm communicating, working with people, helping people. My first big adult job actually was a HR representative, guest services at Toys R Us. And so I had to kind of manage the employee benefits administration. And I had to kind of help with how guests come in and out of some of the larger footprints of the stores. Nothing tied to sociology. Nothing in particular tied to sociology. Well, that's all right. And in terms of the transition from academia, and if I recall you were a collegiate athlete, that transition from sports and school into the work environment, what was actually like for you? Yeah, well full transparency. I had one of the biggest life changes for myself in undergrad. So my second year at the Ohio State University, I started to have issues with walking, tripping, numbness. And I went through a journey to try and figure out what was going on, waking up one day to paralysis, only to find out later I would be diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And so my journey of what the future was going to look like altered a bit, which also altered my thinking of career and what that might mean for the future. And so when I look back on that, I really think that at the time I wanted to shape up for my career trajectory, longevity and meaningfulness because I felt like I had lost it with that diagnosis. But it really turned into how can I make sure I equip myself with the things that I need to be successful in a career, but also successful managing this disease that felt like it was kind of taking over my life. And so I would say a lot of that learning of diagnosis into transition to what does this now mean for me to live with multiple sclerosis and also have a career is where I think I found a lot of trajectory and equipping my village that was surrounding me with what I wanted to do. I wanted to make sure I was still making impact and whatever I would do in the future in my career. But then I also wanted to make sure I was still helping wherever I could. And what occurred was me needing to step back from playing soccer, focus more on not that I wasn't focusing on my academics, but making sure I doubled down on that differently than trying to balance the two, but then also making sure I had this future setting of what can I do now to ensure that I have the skills that will always equip me for making money and having a family and balancing that all together with living with multiple sclerosis. Wow. Thank you for sharing. I think through the what you shared about equipping your village. And I imagine for people who are going through these life changing moments that equipping yourself right for that is hard enough, but then teaching and helping the people around you find a way to support in a positive and impactful way. Do you have any advice for folks out there who are the village to people who might be going through a major life change like this and how to help them. Yeah. And then tee that person they care about for success. Yeah, I would say the first thing to think about is the individual that you are surrounding with love and wanting to help support has to go through a change for themselves. And so that might mean taking a step back to what you think may be their need and being a listening ear. Right. So it's how can you be a listening ear as they go through that change themselves. I know when I reflect back the change for me took some time. The first moment I was diagnosed, I turned and looked at my parents and said, I'd like to go on a shopping spree right now. Right. Shopping. So let's go shopping. Go to retail therapy. Can I spend your money? Right. But on the heels of that, there is this understanding and there was this understanding for myself what does this mean and how can people help me. But I wasn't there out of the gate. And so for my village, they took a step back and said she must get there. So acknowledging that step back, being a listening ear at any point in time, an individual wants to reach out and talk, make sure you're there. Right. Because then that's essentially them saying, now I need my village to help support. Well, tremendous advice. To transition a little bit back towards the work world here, you got out of college, you kind of had this life changing moment. You've been working for a little while. What did you learn about yourself in the first full-time job that you helped? Well, I learned first and foremost that the workforce is much different than your preparation towards it, right? Your college prep towards it, the workforce is much different. And in that learning, what does that truly mean? It means how you work with teams is different than how you may work with a team on a playing field, right? And sports. How you get work done and the speed and rate by which you have to get that done and due dates are all different. And so trying to manage the expectation within the workforce is that it's going to be different than when you're in undergrad or even that first job is really what I think became my focus is how do I shift and understand and organize myself in such a way that I'm meeting the demands of this new job that I have that's different than the demands of what I was doing in undergrad and also different than the demands of what my body needs for me, right? And my physical being needs for me. So that became trial and error, right? So there's a trial and error of saying, here's the deadlines that my organization says I need to meet. Here's stress that I might be feeling from whatever might be going on, absence of any disease, right? Absent of that, it's what's going on in my stress levels. And then how do I still meet those needs of the organization plus myself? And trial and error says sometimes you're going to be successful at understanding what those needs are and meeting those demands. And sometimes you might not. And the building self-efficacy and confidence around, if you don't meet those demands, how do you equip yourself with meeting them the next time, right? And our understanding where you have room to improve was kind of the journey I think I went through. It makes a lot of sense. And, gosh, what a challenging but beautiful opportunity to adapt and just kind of deal with this brutally challenging circumstance. But to come out of that with the mentality of this is one way it didn't work and I'm going to try again tomorrow and we're going to see how this is going to work, what a beautiful way to deal with such a challenging situation. In terms of an inflection point and thinking about when you really professionally hit your stride, you run a big business now, you have a very big job. Was there a moment when you figured out that this sort of work was a good fit for you? There was. There was a turning point. I wouldn't say it's an instantaneous moment that I wake up and said, "Oh, this is it," right? There was almost a journey that I found myself on where I was hitting my stride. It's almost like running, right? When you're at that certain mile point and you know, I only have this much amount to go and I have this much in my kind of in my steam, then yes, I'm going to hit my stride. And I would say while I was at AIQ it, I really found myself in this space of having moved from different roles within that organization. I understood the people. I understood the processes by which the organization functioned. I understood the technology. I knew the politics, right? And so when all of those married themselves together and I felt this level of confidence to help maybe drive change is probably the best way to say it, that's where I felt like I hit my stride. And while I've been a helper, a communicator, I love to be involved. And also I love to help change spaces in that help space. I think that's where I hit my stride is that I realize that I could help change people and that would help change the organization towards what they were looking for in order to profit on certain business functions. And so really hitting my stride was finding my knack in problem solving, change management if you will. And that was by virtue of understanding the people well, understanding the processes, understanding the technology that kind of helps move both of those areas and really managing through corporate politics, right? What are the things we need to make sure that we keep in our line of sight? That's where I hit my stride. And that's where I feel like I continue to build on that from organization to organization. It seems like operations is kind of a core theme throughout your entire career. And you found yourself there. What were some of the things that you had to work at to master that function or that capability? Well, the first is people. So how do you make sure you get down to people's values, beliefs in order to ensure that they feel comfortable operating in the operational model that's set up for the organization? And what that really truly means is how can you be an influential leader, whether that be leading people directly or as a peer and how can you help them visualize what's ahead, right? And getting down to values, beliefs, that's really saying, what's in this business for you as an individual? What can I release in your skill sets that will help flourish us, right? And what are those values that keep you feeling confident by virtue of the work that you do, right? So building people's self-efficacy and being relatable, right? So very early on, I started to talk about what I was living with and that was multiple sclerosis. And I do think that that helped release a level of vulnerability that people can relate to. And so the start of it is getting everybody aligned, getting the people aligned, getting that influential kind of trajectory out there so that they feel comfortable with how you will lead and how you will put them through the change that's ahead. And then working that through the process, whatever process is embedded within that operational space, are there problems by which that people have to work through the process and how can you help them break down those problems or barriers to then help them move the agenda that needs to happen through that process? And then the technology that you're going to use in it. So what technology, technological functions are already there in the business, again, this operations mindset? So what technological functions do people need to use in order to push process through and do they feel a level of self-efficacy in themselves to be able to move that process through that technological function? So those are some of the keys that I think I've used and continue to use in this operational mindset that has helped me grow in my career. And I can also hear your love of coaching within that description in the sense of making sure that the players on the field have the technical capabilities to navigate what they need to do, play their position well, understand the view of the field, and helping them figure out how do I dial that in? How do I refine this or that and know how to do the job well? It's so interesting how all those tend to come together. Yes, it's almost like when I was playing soccer as a very young girl, I was setting myself up for the future. But I do. I really do think that there's a lot of applicable tactic that goes into playing a sport like soccer as an example and elevating your teammates and coming together to figure out what's our common goal? That's operations in itself. And finding that within a team structure allows people to understand how they take space, how they take the space to enable them. Same thing on a soccer field. I remember I had a handful of coaches that would always say, "Take the space, Paula. Take the space." And earlier on, you're like, "What are you talking about?" They're like, "I want to be out there in space, right?" "We're nobody's ad." Well, yeah, you do because you want to be able to receive the ball and move it forward. So team setting, yeah, you want to take the space because you want to be able to help people along the journey of building or igniting the business value stream that you're running. So all applicable. That's beautiful. What a great adage. In terms of your current job, you're the head of pension risk transfer. Can you tell us what that actually means and roughly where you fit within the company? Sure, sure. My main role and responsibility is managing the profit and loss of the business line. And so how do I do that? We're through the people that have built the business and are helping to scale the business. And so I find myself oftentimes making sure I'm strategizing with the sales or business development team that brings the opportunities to nationwide for this business line. And then we look at what does profit mean for this business line through those sales that we might win? And then how do we transition that business into profitable long term gains for us? And then also how do we ensure that the customer or the annuitants, as we call it in space, feel comfortable with what nationwide is delivering for their pension payments. So I am almost the coach, I would say, if I have to continue with this team analogy. The coach and the manager, the general manager, of the business and how do we look and oversee that profit? How do we make sure we manage the loss as effectively as possible? And then how do people organize themselves around the process by which we do the work? So that's kind of in short what I do. So in simple terms, the business that you build here will acquire pension plans and essentially take that liability off the business sheet or the balance sheet rather of the business that it originally offered the pension. Would you teach us a little bit about how you might go about building a business like that? It's a great question. I really think of myself as an entrepreneur, right? So if you're thinking of this business line at the insurance carrier space, because that's where we're at, we're in an insurance company and the liabilities are transferring from plan sponsor or private sector organization over to an insurance carrier. And looking at it from an entrepreneur space, it is who are the people that are going to have the knowledge of this market, the knowledge of this business? Let's start with them because that will equip the organization with what needs to happen in order to attract sales and make them profitable. You still can build that within existing employees as you're building a business inside of a business, but you want to marry those ideas together when you're thinking of starting something new. Can you start at least at a baseline of employees that have the knowledge of the marketplace already? I came with decades of experience in the pension risk transfer business. And so nationwide really wanted to make sure do we have a business leader that understands from start to finish how this business can be successful. So that's start. Then you look at the process within the organization on how do they take in premium or liabilities or money and ensure that they're investing it in such a way that they will be profitable at the end. And so as we think about that in a new business, it's trying to look internally at how capital is managed, money is managed internally. And using that same process of pricing, underwriting, financial acumen to help accelerate the new business. So can we use the same process that has been successful for the other business lines within the insurance organization and help accelerate the new business? So that was kind of step two. Like the people leverage the process and then think about what the architecture internally looks like for the people to be successful within the organization to do and manage the money. And so that is looking at technological functions that exist and establish whether or not those technological functions have longevity for the business to be sustained for X amount of future, which I fully believe this will be a business line for decades out. And the market says it's going to be a business line for decades out. So how do you use the technology that's already functioning? Test it out to determine whether or not it will allow the business to continue to function into the future. So what is the people that now understand the process and redevelop or re-engineer what the technology is to equip the scale of the business? So those are again, going through that operational kind of formula, the people process kind of technology, if you will, that helped us build what we know today as our pension risk transfer business at each of mine. Wow, how cool is that? So if I'm understanding you correctly, you developed a deep expertise in this sector. And then you joined Nationwide to essentially become a general manager, a P&L owner, and to build a business within Nationwide as an entrepreneur. Would you teach us or perhaps thinking about people out there who are also deep experts in an area and want to start something from the ground up? Would you teach us a little bit about how you went about selecting the first few team members and kind of building that organization? I'd love to. And I had a very unique scenario when I started to build the business at Nationwide. There was a global pandemic going on, all right? And so this is 2020 when I started at Nationwide in March, right? So everybody is learning a new way of working and I am finding myself needing to learn a new way of how to start a business during a global pandemic, something that never experienced, right? And hope to potentially never experience again. So some of the things that I thought about was who internally at Nationwide has the knowledge enough and can grow that knowledge more around this business. And I knew that I was going to likely be working with individuals that were newer to understanding the exact function of Pangemorice Transfer but had enough information because of Nationwide's longevity in annuities, business, and financial services. I knew that there we weren't going to be starting from scratch. So taking what exists in an organization or taking the human capital that exists in an organization and building on that. So kind of an internal recruiting if you would, but there were individuals from corporate strategy and from our actuarial practice that said, "I want to learn more and I know enough," right? And so pulling those individuals in was easy at first, right? So let's post the organization, see who's there, see who was involved in corporate strategy to kind of build this business line, who has been involved in that actuarial function and practice that feels similar as the risk transfer underwriting and pricing, but probably was different. And let's marry them with individuals from the market. So individuals that are not at Nationwide but essentially know this business line. So my second order of business after pulling internal was looking external and saying, "Who in the marketplace is looking for opportunity to be part of a startup, an internal startup and entrepreneurship and who has the right amount of experience," which is at that point in time is the decades of experience that would marry with my decades of experience. And let's pull them in to help us with the operational functions of building the business. So that's kind of how I got my start and the thought that I used in hiring and trying to staff a new business. Great. That makes a ton of sense. In terms of a good year, how do you think about what a good year looks like for you and broadly for your organization? So a good year is us hitting tap-wind sales. So a good year is us being successful in meeting our targets and that contributes then to the overall enterprise of Nationwide. And truly the business that we build is what we call a lumpy business. So sales happen in the second half of the year traditionally. So the first half of the year, you're kind of working through whatever would have been success from the previous year. The second half of the year is really where the marketplace starts to ramp up. And the ideal setting is that you're winning that premium in that second half of the year and then you're managing the transition of that premium from the previous plant sponsor into the insurance carrier. So a successful year looks as though you've second half of the year, you've capitalized on what you wanted to be your target or your success or your sales. And then you are able to see in the first half of the next year how that all looks in terms of profit as the year goes on. So that's what I would say is a successful year. Makes sense. I'm going to step back in a philosophical sense here. Would you tell us a little bit about what your work means to you? Yeah, so my work means teamwork. I really truly feel as though that the work that we've done within this area means that I'm able to work with a team. Right? So that's first and foremost. I love going back to my start to playing sports and wanting to make sure I'm helping work to me means that my team is working and functioning and feels that they are contributing in such a way that it's success for them, right? And it's success for us as an organization. The next part of meaningfulness for what I do at work is am I helping to ensure longevity and pension income for those annuitants that we acquire through this business line and product line. So do we have individuals feeling as though their income is now safe or safer being underwritten and managed through nationwide? And we gather that from engagement surveys. We gather that through kind of the poll surveys that we do in the market. So reading those brings meaning to me and then meaning to the team that we are helping to contribute to a safe space for those that future income for the vast majority of our participants who are in this retirement phase, that they feel comfortable in years out that their money is safe with nationwide. I'm right on. That sounds great. We'll get back to the conversation shortly, but I wanted to tell you about how I can help you find your fit. I offer one-on-one career coaching services for experienced professionals who are preparing to find and land their next role. If you're a director, vice president, or C-suite executive and you're ready to explore new opportunities, please go to goodfitcareers.com to apply for a free consultation. I also occasionally send a newsletter which includes stories from professionals who have found their fit, strategies, and insights that might be helpful in your job search and content that I found particularly useful or interesting. If you'd like to learn more, check out goodfitcareers.com and follow me on LinkedIn. Now back to the conversation. You mentioned a little earlier about the concept of taking the space. And I'd love to know how you took that lesson from your athletic career, applied it to your professional work, to your approach to networking, and even your approach to philanthropy. Would you walk us through that? Yeah, so I think I explained a little bit about the concept on the field where coaches would say, "Take the space. Take the space." And earlier on in sports as a player, you're always trying to figure out, "What is the coach saying to me while I'm trying to play the sport on the field?" So ultimately, what I've taken away from it and what I have also coached as a professional soccer coach for about 12 years, so not only was I a player, I also contributed to coaching myself, is making sure that I'm getting to space of opportunity. And I'm taking that space as an opportunity. On the field, it really means I'm getting away from the too much of where the work doesn't happen, right? And getting to a space where someone can get me the ball and I'm heading to the goal. Or someone can get me the ball and I'm releasing it from the backfield because I was a defender and then went to striker, which is a whole different story, right? But now, when you think about that, when I think about that from the business lines, it really means how do we work within an organization or how do teams build within an organization to take up space in the marketplace that might be a differentiation from others, right? So can you build on that as a differentiation and succeed with it? So that's how I think of it from a broader business sense. And that's what I've done at organizations. How do I accelerate the business into a space that there may not be many in and help us grow in it, right? And kind of a healthy way of profiting from that business line. I think as an individual in my career, taking space means helping people and being out in the open, not only on explaining my career, my trajectory and the challenges that I've faced over time, but making sure I'm visible, that people that look like me see a path forward. So taking the space means being in conversations, in spaces where I can talk about my career to help others. And then I would say from an individual lens, really means is there's something that you should be thinking about in the open that will help you foster you and your skills, foster you and your family, foster you and your career and take that space, take the time to understand what that means, be open and transparent on it and live in that moment of that space that you're taking, right? And kind of as you get the ball, right? Do with it what you can, right? Do with it what you can. As we think through perceptions and perhaps misconceptions, how do you believe the world that the people out there in general see your job? I love this question. I'd love to pulse people on this question too, right? What do you think my job includes? And I would say less the job, more the market industry. And I think that there's a misconception of what our business line means in the broader market. And ultimately it's finding safe and available insurance carriers to take on and manage this risk that sits on balance sheet, right? And so what does that mean? And when you explain it, it doesn't mean all of the things I mentioned earlier, the people, the process, the technology. It doesn't really mean all of that when you say it in summary. But at the heart of it, it does mean all of those things. It means kind of managing the people within it and managing. And the people can be those that run the business and then kind of the consumer, right? If you will, or a new attempt that's receiving those payments. It means the process. It means the technology that supports it. So I do think that there's a misconception on running this business, what it means to start it, what it means to have longevity in it. I would say there could be a misconception on how should a leader be thinking about the operating model of this business in order to ensure that it's going to be profitable. A lot of it as the strategic north has to do with managing those liabilities as they come on the books at Nationwide. But then there's a large component of it that means organizing the people around how does that work? How do you manage that large sum of money and ensure that when we distribute it to a new attempts that are now Nationwide Inuitents, that we're doing it in a safe way. And so I think a business leader then is responsible for orchestrating all of that. And sometimes that can be a misconception of you got to manage the money of it, but you also have to manage the operating model of it too. Sure, sure. If you were to go about setting expectations for someone who might be interested in general management or someone who might be interested in moving into the financial services world, what sort of expectations would you set for those folks? The first expectation I would set is that there's always going to be an opportunity in this financial services space. And the movement into a general manager that resides over financial services is something that you can start early on in your career or later on in your career. One of the individuals should be thinking about is what are the product lines that I have a skill set for if you're later on in your career? What do I already have a skill set in and how does that match up with the insurance carrier or the financial service product that you might be interested in? For those that are early on in their career, I would have you think more general around what do financial services organizations bring to market and how do they manage that? And when you think in those general terms and look at that, then you can be thinking about how do I build up the skills necessary that might be outlined on their websites, outlined in their brochures, information, how do I build that skill? Some of the product lines that sit and reside in insurance carriers or financial services require credentials, require licenses, and early on in your career, you can get a fresh start and a quick start on obtaining those, right, through study and learning. Later on in your career, you can still do the same thing. We and learn to get the right credentials and licensing were applicable to support financial service organizations. Great advice. You've achieved quite a bit. You've moved up very far in large organizations. You're a P&L owner. You run a big team within a big business. Is there any advice that you'd go back and give your younger self if you had the opportunity? Yeah, you know, Ryan, I always start with a lot of the right now. I would tell my younger self, don't mess up. Just do like I'm not going to tell you anything. Just continue to be you and go through all the challenges, right? Because the setting I'm in right now for me is the way it should have been, right? There's nothing that I can now look back and say I regret, right? Even when I reflect and think about, oh, that was a failure. Well, that failure turned into positive. So there's the funny side of me that if I see me walking by a younger me, I'm just going to walk on by her and say, she's got it. There's nothing I can tell her. I don't want to change anything because this trajectory worked out well. But beyond levity, I would definitely say network more, right? Get out there more. And as much as I'm a social butterfly to be saying that to my younger self, I know my younger self would be saying, well, who else you want me to talk to? I talk to everybody. I'm like, I'm an extra, extra bird. But networking is something a little bit different, right? Continue to repeatedly go back and make sure you establish relationship. And that relationship has longevity and not just a moment in time. That's what I would tell my younger self. It's build up strength and relationship to network and not just meet people, right? Not just meet people once and that's it, especially if those individuals brought me worthwhile information, right? At that first entrance, right? Did they bring me worthwhile information? If yes, then let me network. So I think that that would be the one thing I would say to my younger self. And I certainly believe that we can all do a better job of that. So if you're listening to this out there, take the time to connect with the people that you knew and haven't caught up with or the folks that you need to be meeting, great advice. And also I love the concept that you're right where you're supposed to be. And the journey was what it needed to be. The failures, the missteps. I think through my own professional failures and the whoopsies I've had through my life and as painful as they are, I have grown and become better because of them. As much as in part would have loved to have avoided the pain or not had any of those mistakes, they're essential. It's part of the journey. There's so much so. Let's talk about hiring. I'd love to learn a little bit about your approach to your philosophy per se, to hiring. I'm thinking more specifically, how do I go about identifying, evaluating, and then courting, bringing on board the people that are essential to success for a business like yours? The first step to evaluate, and as I mentioned, a lot of what ignites this business is individuals that have built up, kind of a long-term understanding of the business line. And so looking out, and it's a niche business, I should call that out. It's a niche business. There's not a lot of us. But as I think about that niche business and think about hiring, it is how do I look and use my networks back to the network space? How do I use my networks? But then how do I also use some of the platforms that exist? The resumes that are out there, write or titles that are out there and say, does this individual have the right type of skill set that we're looking for? So when I think about that, I think about LinkedIn as a great space right now for more individuals in this market to be highlighting and showcasing what they've done in this industry. So I would say that's first pass is let's look in the marketplace and say, who has the skill set? And then outside of that, it also is not just the skill set to make this business flourish, but some of those softer skills. Communication is critically important. Relationship management is also of importance. So as I think about that, I think about the individuals that I've met within internal, and through the business lines and the groups that I work with. Are there individuals that meet some of those softer skills that might not have the breadth of experience for the market or the industry? And then how do I make sure that as I'm preparing to go through resumes, preparing to go through individuals that my team is thinking of bringing in, right? And I'm igniting some of that philosophy into the leaders that are actually going to be probably the direct hiring managers. Then how do we say as a group, let's make sure individuals that we do think will be viable candidates have the right type of story to tell right through behavioral questioning. I absolutely love behavioral questioning because then that gets individuals in a conversation more than a closed ended question or multitude of open ended questions. They can tell stories and we can figure out how those applicable stories match up to the applicable skills that we're looking for. So why that's important is because if we find an individual that has some of the softer skills but may not have the market expertise and they've been able to showcase how they can evolve and handle that market skill set that we would build in them through learning and development, then that might be the most ideal candidate over someone that has decades of experience but doesn't have the strength and the softer skills that we might be looking for. Everybody that I work with tends to have a different approach to the process of hiring people. The series of steps that one would go through to evaluate the skills and experiences, drivers and traits of a candidate that you might consider. Have you found in all your years of hiring and building businesses that there's an ideal process or workflow for you to use to find your team? Ideal yes but am I able to meet that ideal process and workflow each time, not each time? I do think that there's the understanding of who you're looking for, skills necessary, conversation you want to get in with them. Those are an ideal setting and you get in that conversation and you're finding out more on how they match up with the culture, the business you're building, and the people that they're going to be working with. There are times where that ideal setting of going through, looking at the people, looking at the skills you need and having the conversation to see if they fit, doesn't flow in the right way. Where I have found it flows opposite or different is if I'm out networking with people and I meet individuals through conferences or conversations I might find myself in or even through individuals reaching out and saying, "Hey, I see you have a business over at Nationwide. I'd love to talk to you, Paula." That's where I might find myself in conversation with individuals first, before there might be role out there and then I'm determining, "Well, how do we fit this person in? Does it make sense for us to take them through an interview process? Do we have open roles or should we be thinking about open roles because I've just been in conversation with an individual that fits the culture, what we're trying to do, fits the long-term goals?" That's where I think the process flips on itself when I'm able to find myself in discussion or in conversation with individuals that piqued my interest in terms of how they could help us make and build the business even more. Along that same line of thinking, something that I find seems to be a pretty common experience for folks out there is they're capable, they're excited about the work, but they have a hard time getting people to see them, to take a chance on them. Is there anything that might compel you to take a chance on a candidate just from their resume or just from how they reach out to you or what might compel you? I love a good brand statement. So a strong, I'm real big on brand and personal brand. So for me, if individuals approach me and in the first two minutes or even the first sentence or two and they reach out, they've described their personal brand in such a way that is compelling and speaks to the heart of what I'm looking for, I'm definitely having another conversation with them. So I think that personal brand can be captivating to individuals that are thinking different or in the moment about wanting to learn more about that individual. In terms of networking and being reached out to, how do you like to be approached or how do you like to be networked with? Well, I absolutely love being in person. So someone coming up and introducing themselves, as I have mentioned multiple times in this conversation, I'm an extrovert, social butterfly. So people introducing themselves to me, I absolutely love. I do also like to reach out every now and then, and I say every now and then because sometimes the social media reach out can be one in which you're trying to figure out what is this person, how do I know them without that personal brand statement? So that personal brand statement probably intrigues me more to respond and kind of reach in more to learn more. But I really love the, hey, I'm so and so I've heard about it, I've heard who you are or I'm interested in learning more. So that personal touch, I think, is the one that I like the most and the in-person of course. I think we went for a period of time of not in-person. So the in-person is motivating for me. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let's transition over to your approach to management and leadership. One of the things that I find fascinating is people's different approaches to accountability and performance management. Would you teach us a little bit about your philosophy to both of those? One of my biggest philosophies to people management is similar to building the business, right? And building a business within a business. And that is getting to know your direct reports, your people on that kind of values and what they believe in level and fostering that as much as you can, right? And that might be short connections on learning about their family as much as they want to explain to you and you want to explain to them, learning about kind of their upbringing and what is meaningful for them in their trajectory and their career. And I do think that's very important because you're spending a large amount of time with the people that you're working with, right? My husband and I always joke is we work more with the people sometimes than in our organizations than we do work with each other at home. And so how do you foster a strong relationship? It's kind of getting to know people at a different level. But then performance management. So once you get an understanding of their values, beliefs, what drives them, how they got to that point of being driven and that's kind of through their upbringing, then how do you help them to achieve their goals and equate that to performance? And where I think that it's critically important is to build the right type of goals with individuals, right? So building business goals and making sure everybody's bought into those same business goals and it's not just a dictation of here's what we need to meet, is everybody bought into it, is everybody understand the path forward and having repeated conversations in the beginning of the year about what those business goals are. But then also making sure that their own personal goals tied to business are expressed and outlined. That's how I feel that you drive performance overall into individuals is making sure you understand their values, beliefs and order for there to be a relatable relationship between the two and then igniting an understanding of the collective strategy to drive the business through business goals and then making sure individuals are highlighting their personal goals that tie to development, career planning and kind of the future setting that they may have in business. Let's take it a step further. So let's just say that I'm a manager or that someone in our audience is a manager and maybe a new manager and they've done a good job of building rapport, building a strong and positive relationship with their team. They understand what drives them. They understand where they want to go, their goals for their own career and their professional aspirations. But then they get to the point where that person that they like very much and that they can only assume likes them also isn't delivering what the business needs. How do you transition from that let's be friends essentially to I need you to pick it up? How does that work? Well it starts when you're setting the relationship up, right? So as you're setting up the relationship, you are fostering an equal balance of rapport with an individual that allows them to feel comfortable in any setting of feedback, right? So positive and opportunistic feedback and the way you do that is in the beginning of the relationship and being transparent and clear about expectations, goals along with establishing a positive relationship, getting down to values and beliefs. I think that carries over into times in which that you have to ensure that goals are being met and skills are being flourished when things are not in the perfect setting, right? When individuals are not performing at their top or at that top of their game. And I do think it starts in the beginning because you can't flip the script, right? And change from one type of manager to the next. There has to be consistency in which that you deliver messages, you provide feedback, you demonstrate leadership and that is on a kind of continuum, if you will. So when individuals then need more support and how they develop and are going through challenges in order to meet those goals and meet those demands, you're almost using the same voice that you're using or the same kind of approach to the relationship that you use in the beginning of fostering the relationship. And so if there's an equal balance of that on a continuum, there might not be as much of a shock from individuals when you're giving them corrective feedback. I also think the frequency by which that you meet with individuals matters and it counts, right? So that there isn't a long period of time by which that you've learned that there's opportunity to improve to when you need to provide that feedback. My philosophy is every two weeks with my direct reports, I like to meet with them on a stand-up, 15 minutes in out, how are you doing? Risk barriers, what can I help with? And then on a monthly frequency, we meet for a little bit longer to hear an overarching understanding of development, what they're working on. Again, maybe double-downing into kind of barriers and risks that I can help write down for them. So frequency by which that you meet will help strengthen the relationship so that in between, if there's moments in which that there needs to be improvement, it's just business, it's right? It's common conversation, I guess if you will. So that's what I would probably add into philosophy of how to manage that at times in which associates need a little bit more support. For those managers that we're speaking to out there who are learning about performance management and accountability, would you share with us a little bit about your intuition on when things have not been working out and you've made every effort to provide consistent and frequent feedback to try to correct and help them get back on track? How did you develop your intuition around, "This really isn't working out, we're going to have to part ways?" The strength of the relationship, I believe, is my intuition. So the strength of the relationship is the intuition. What I mean by that is as you're working through opportunity to improve, the more that you know about the individual and how they work at their best, the more that you'll know about an individual when they're working through opportunity to improve. You'll see them strengthen themselves in times and you'll see where they need more support at times. So strength of relationship will help you get an understanding and breed on, "Is this working? Are they meeting their own expectation? Are they voicing over how they're working towards things and actually meeting that expectation for themselves?" And you'll see clues. And if you have a strong relationship, you'll see clues that the goals that they've set for themselves, they're not meeting and the goals that then relate to the business and the function, they're not meeting. And so there's the ability to have transparent conversations throughout because you have an instinct and an intuition and how they function in good times and stressful times. And so through those stressful times, you'll be able to understand they're not coming up from that. How do I now think differently about the value that they're bringing to the organization? And then you're providing that in conversation with them as well so that there's this equal discussion on do you feel or how do you feel your contributions are towards the business now? How do you feel about the goals that you've set? That type of conversation will ignite more discussion and probably more authentic conversation from the employee on, "I don't think I am." Here's what I've tried to work on. I'm just not meeting those opportunities or expectations. And what a beautiful illustration of your empathetic and very thorough leadership style and that approach. I feel like there are many managers out there who should perhaps aspire to be able to have those real conversations with people and lead them to some of the more difficult things. That was great. Thank you for sharing that. All right. So as we transition to the future here and we bring this conversation to a close, you can take a swing at any of these that you'd like, but at a macro level, what are you excited about for the future of industry, of the field, of the world that we live in today? What are you looking forward to? Yeah. So at a macro for the business, I'm really looking forward to the decades ahead. So there will be and are more companies that are looking at insurance carriers to support them and the transfer of those risks off balance sheet. And this market is primed and ready for it. Insurance carriers are safe and available to take on those liabilities and invest them in a different way and a safer way. So I'm looking forward to what that future holds because I do feel as though that we're in the right place at the right time to see positive for then the annuitants to have that income for the future. So that's why I'm looking forward at a macro level from the business standpoint. You know, individually, I really think I'm looking forward to continuing to support that, right? Continuing to support the success of that and seeing my career along with my team's career flourishing it. That's wonderful. To put a little time stamp on history here, it's May of 2024 when we're recording this. I'd love for you to give us a little bit of a prediction and to help us think through what financial services or the broader insurance space or even pension space might look like in 2030. What do you think? Yeah, you know, I try not to look too far in the future as I'm aging, but also I do believe that the strength of what organizations such as Nationwide bring to the table in our financial services outlook in particular of how we equip the future for our members. The future is bright, right? The future is bright and we are enabling ourselves through employing and deploying the people, right? We are using the process internal that has helped us for the decades that we've been in existence to continue to support those businesses and those futures. And then we also are always evolving the technological underlying of how we do that work. So I look forward to 2030 because I do think that we will continue to be one of the top providers in this, in the business space that I support, but then also in the financial services industry and we will continue to be at the top beyond 2030. Wonderful. Paul, you've been so very generous with all of your wisdom and all of your time. Before we call it a day, is there anything that you'd like to promote or share with the audience? The only thing I would say to promote is number one soccer, everybody should get out and watch soccer because we've talked about a lot in this conversation. And then once you see it, watch it, don't ask about off-site. So that's one thing I'll say. But then also I would say picking up any book that talks about operational excellence and this whole idea of how to use lean and improving how people work within the value chain of a business or the work that they do will help equip us all with the understanding of how to improve, how to solve problems. So that's one of the things I would probably toss out there is if I could get everybody to be kind of an OPEX leader, then yes, I've met some expectations that we're not even there, but I'm setting them now. So that's the last thing I'll leave us with. I love it. Wonderful. Thank you, Paolo. Thank you so very much for joining us and sharing your perspective. Ryan, it was a pleasure. I had such a fun time today. Thank you for the invite. You're welcome. Thanks for being here. Our next episode is with Ed Magee, Vice President of Strategic Operations with Belmont University. When people want to build things that are sustainable, you have to be a student of culture. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe for new episodes, leave a review, and tell a friend. GoodFit Careers is hosted by me, Ryan Dickerson, and is produced and edited by Melo-Vox Productions. Marketing is by StoryAngled, and our theme music is by Surftronica with additional music from Andrew Espronceda. I'd like to express my gratitude to all of our guests for sharing their time, stories, and perspectives with us. And finally, thank you to all of our listeners. If you have any recommendations on future guests, questions, or comments, please send us an email at hello@goodfitcareers.com. [MUSIC]