Mick coax. Welcome to Hey. Thank you for joining down. To come and chat me. My pleasure was nice drive until until he hit London. Yeah. The. Yeah. Yeah When he sent me to... Yeah the estimated time arrival Thought. He's only give it a half hour bracket, like London. You now if I by car anyway. Yeah. Well, I I actually... Because I stopped. I I was gonna get a copy, and I thought I won't because of the traffic. So I just got myself a red bull straight and filled the car up and and just crack on. And I've glad I did, to be honest. Yeah. Alright. So just at the end of the ice iceberg there, we were talking about, you mentioning... I know it's in between the Iceberg actually where the camera is off. When you're talking about that you've... You you're you're an open book in terms of topics conversation, and That you've done podcasts, which have quite a, high, like a a lot of innovative of pro Ira. Yeah. Listeners. Yeah. So what has you been doing? And way and why does that... What do you think about that? Like why does that? Yeah. I think... Because... I mean, 2 years ago, I I finished my sort of career really as security manager. I've done 22 years in corporates Kerry. And I've just had AAAA light light bulb moment while I was sat in at home in the hague at the time, And I just thought... I need to do so much slightly different here. You know, very easy to plug on with life and and and just go with the flow. So write the book was was for me was important. But I didn't want a bravo 2 0 type book. I wanted the book to be about helping people who hit a brick wall based on what I... What happened to me, if that makes sense. So so Nick Johnson, who unfortunately passed away 6 3 ago. She is very left wing, feminist, just to work for Gordon Brown as a in communications and the first meeting was was at her telling me a bog off. I'm I'm not the person to write your book. So when we got chatting, and and I explained how I wanted the book to go, she was hook and sync with it. She thought what a fantastic I, totally different. Can you elaborate it more? Am I? Yeah. It's it... Because it it's it's quite heartfelt ready. It it it, you know, goes through a lot about my marriage as well, that after 30 years so came to an end. And the reason being is we drifted apart, and when when people work away for a long periods of times, it does so over a glass of wine really. We am, separated. And and I've got a massive amount of respect for my wife. She she was always there when my 4 kids were grown up, like, you know, I. So I was off Gall around the world for first mil event event in corporate security. She's always been the person that's kept it together, the the glue, and I'm very close with the with all my kids. So I I didn't want, you know, somewhat like a separation and we're we're not officially divorced. But I'd... Yeah, I didn't want the separation to ruin that relationship. So I gave her the house had a big 5 bed barn conversion just outside Air. Came here you can grab it you know, because, yeah. She... Now She just deserved it. If I'm a... Solicit thought I was mad that, what the hell you doing, Mate? But at the time, I lived in Monica. Well, lived in Monica. I was in hotels in Monica. For 3 years. So so the house issue wasn't... It wasn't major drama if that makes sense. I was a bit glad she sold it in the end. And she she brought a house in Her itself. Beautiful because she's got a business up and running called K on Saint Owen Street. Berry dog friendly with my daughter. And it's a great little of place. So, yeah. They're they're doing great. Oh, a coffee shop. Yeah. It it's... Yeah. Coffee shop stroke, smoothies. I shop stopping in next time I know. Yeah. I tell you what there's some far too, healthy green looking. Thank you so. That people will buy. But, yeah. I'm I'm I'm straight that latte in a sandwich daily? That makes sense. So the book wise the book that Way was she hook lion and sink was? Yeah. Heartfelt, Yeah. Life, Yeah probably just been nuts. Yeah. Well, it was... She actually actually like the the the fact that an Sas, you know, because everybody's got this impression that Sc ses guy is 6 foot or Macho blah blah blah. Whereas the story that we're trying to say was all the all the the soft side of it, life as well. You know, and being separated from your kids and and all that, it's just a different, you know, what Sc ses guys are really about, which is predominantly, family, family orientated, most s guys are married, all our kids, and people tend to forget that. I don't and I always find, found that if you're on operations northern ireland and you came home. Having a family around. You know, was was great grounding because you'd you'd be doing some, you know, nasty over in Northern ireland 1 minute. You'll be back in Har ford, and and my, Kim used to say you me right? Make joy, you pick the kids up now like, You know? So So you had no no time really to to dwell on what what you'd been doing it over wherever like, you know, and to be honest, it it was just good ground, you know, picking the kids up, you know? And whereas is this... I suppose say, the married, the non married land. You know, they they could dwell on it, you know, because they're sat in the block or sat in a house, you know, on their own, having a few beers or whatever. When you got 4 kids, you can't do that. Like, you know, yeah, you, really around, like, a luna can't jumped all over because the kids were really young then. Mh. So like So she liked that side of it. It it was more the sc and element as opposed to an Sas robot and guns and back. You know, explosions and all that diaper. So hence, you know, it's not a bravo. 2 0. It it's it's all about life, the hiccups you had, You know, I I went for a trial Lincoln so you never got picked. While Crumbled straight away. I then joined the junior parachute regiment got a penny man or told could never parachute. You know? So 2 major incidents, why you still quite young? Just bounce back from it. You're just having that resilience really of, you know, shot it. Well, let's let's go with plan b. Are you enjoying the podcast? You listen to Hr regularly, do you like the fact that you get something different from every episode? I hope so. And if you do, why not consider becoming a patron. In fact, Don't consider it, Just become a patron. Become a patron of h hour at patreon dot com forward slash h k podcast podcasts. I think it costs about a fiber. So you're talking 5 pound a month, you get access to all of the podcasts before anyone else, you also get access to secret interviews called ice breakers that no 1 else gets. The ice don't go public. The guest you're about to listen to recorded at ice before the podcast. It's a short interview. Structures around 8 questions. I will not d your questions to you right now. You need to get on become a patron and find those interviews, and you get access to the whole back catalog as well. Previous guest you've listened to previous guest you enjoyed. And I thought I wanna know more about them. Go back and listen to the air breakers. I look forward to all of the ice breakers as well. As other perks, you get becoming a patron. Get amongst it Patreon dot com forward slash h k podcasts or just search online for h hour patrons. So they the Penny ankle never stopped the Power doing. I've always been thought I was a a bit a rebel, non conform, which is probably why I wasn't a very good camp soldier doing you know, the your berries around the ear and all this, you know, your cat badge and. Always getting symbolic for you know, not dressing the same way as everyone else and stuff like that. So so I always knew at some stage, I was I was gonna head to Her. And and most of the guys are are roughly just of the same milk. You know, that they're they're not canceled your orientated line, you know? And to be honest, 2 2, is not a camp environment. It's it's more individual, express yourself, and more hands on. How do you think... How do you think what's your opinion of how the British... So British special forces capability and and also the the units, especially should you... Use units as well, as security services units have evolved since... You were working with them. Obviously, you you're your background in terms special Duty special forces is Yeah. Extensive. Obviously, got too truly obvious. You got 40 and You got m mi 5, and there's a... There's probably a bunch of others that. I can't recall at the top of my head. What's your opinion in the way things have evolved terms our capability from what they were ready. You directly involved them to know completely different. And and the reason I say that, you know, talking to the kids and, and we're still living in here for well. So... But there... It's it's it's a world change, the the way they operate. Lot more professional. I would say now. You know, we used should wing it quite a lot, great churn, you know, because with... At the time, we didn't have best equipment. Dealt what we dealt course over all the gucci kit. But we used to make it work, and that was the the difference with the 2 2 guys. You know, that you you can give them the crap kit ever, the hardest task to do, and and that was just they'll make it work. They'll they'll just get on with it. Whereas now, you know, they... The 14 end is no longer 14 in. It's, you know, That's alright. Yeah. Absolutely. So So they're they're, more professional, I would say more because in the old days, they weren't... They weren't soldiers. You know, because they'd come from all different backgrounds, Navy, provided quite a few people. Now a navy guy is not a soldier. It might it might think is, but they do a little stint of, close target rec, especially in the urban environment. Where they got put green on. And and they and they they struggled somewhat because it... It's a different environment but they pass a course because like, you know, they pick things up nice quickly. But they're not soldier soldiers whereas, I think now, a lot of that element is beta soldier. So it's a lot... I think it's a lot more difficult for somewhat of a navy background or and our air background, for instance, coming in to do pure surveillance, that there's more to Sr now than what there was with 14 and sporting it was pure surveillance, and technical stuff as well, whereas Sr, mo cannon and with working with the regiment. A lot of females. I'm not a big fan of people saying that the the regiment should, you know, should hire, you know, should out women in there. Unfortunately, Sas selection is not geared towards females emails. And we we understand that. But you always get these people bleeding on the liberals thing. I don't know, you you need to open your door or a blah blah But what's the rationale? Make explain the rationale that it's not geared towards females female? It's not geared towards, but purely because putting this way. Some really good tasty the individual parachute regiment raw marines, fail Sc sas selection. So it's expect a female to to you know, be able to do what they failed able to do. A lot of it is because of the equipment you're carrying the distance and it it's just really not good to a female. Well, I think I think a better way of putting it is it's not geared towards people who aren't physical, extremely physically capable, and that includes a proportion of men, and that includes a higher proportion of women. It's not about the sex Really. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely thing. Absolutely. And they the thing... I... I'm not putting in putting a female under pressure to pass Essay sas because, I think 3 or 4 mob of attempted. But crashed bone quite quite quite early on, if that makes sense and and for us, you know, we expected that, you know, you you don't expect. I've no doubt at at some point in time, a female will will do it, but probably, not any anytime soon. And the reason being is they don't need to pass Sas selection. Go to Sr. I do the surveillance stuff. Because of the regiment need females, let's just go and borrow borrow them. They've been doing it for years, you know, we said... When I first joined the regiment. We had, 2 females working with the regiment, especially doing close protection, stuff in that lot. But they were suspended from, 14 inch, because the 14 inch girls are actually quite capable. You know, my last 2 years and the regiment, I used to teach all the C stuff for the porting. Dead people. And some of the girls coming through were top notch. Mh. So why put them under the pressure to bid run up and down hills and and all that sort of stuff. Just so they can say that the, you know, the the the badge Sas, Well, you know what it... Well, the same reason like, you did it. Yeah. No. About Not the same reason. Yeah. But it it it does put a lot a lot of pressure, I think on a an individual to do it. And and Selection is hard enough as it is. So my my youngest son was, 4 days old when I went on selection, and you just have to blank or that out. Completely, and there was a guy... When I was in jungle, there was a guy from the raw signals. He engaged in conversation. I'll make... You know, I I hear you've got a young... And I and I fob him off. Wasn't interested. He he sac it the next day. And I think it was a bit of a k for help that he he wanted to engage with someone of the same milk. You know, young baby, blah blah, blah. But I I wasn't having anything to do with it. And and he canned it because he was having second thoughts, you and he was thinking family, and and I literally actually had to... Do feel guilty? No Not really because... If I'd have engaged, it it could've have started playing on my mind as well. Yeah. You need a acute focus. Yeah. Absolutely. So so any any outside interference has a massive way whether or not you'll got a pass off fail. You've gotta be a hundred percent up for that up for doing Sas selection. And and any... It's it's like injuries is on the first minute when you were running up down hills, you can't afford to get an injury. Your aim is to to start test week, no injuries is absolutely 0 injuries. So it gives you then a really good chance of of getting through it. So saving the jungle. When you're in the jungle, no outside concerns a concentrate on what you're gonna do because the jungle is obviously the hardest part. And because of the environment you're in as well. You need to be a hundred percent focused. Because some of the stuff you'd in the jungle is actually quite dangerous, and and, you know, you you can't be having someone in there. Who's having sent thoughts and this out, you know, they they need to be focused. And that's why Never engaged with the the individual. And and that was his choice. You know, he unfortunately with the jungle, when when's when 1 person sa it, it has a domino effect, when 1 goes quite a few ago, there's been a lot of Sas selections where nobody is volunteered to to fail in the jungle because no one's been that first person But once that first person does go, it does have a massive and it... An on my election, I think we lost about 9 people. Voluntary withdrew from from the jungle phase itself. Some some, none. They don't do it. But it I 1 to to scan it and and and it does have that domino effect. So so, yeah. So females, fantastic. You know, what they do is great. What they bring to the party doing all the Covert stuff, You know, I've worked with some very good female so who are very good at what they do. Doing really need to put them under pressure. Just, you know, get their berry and a blue staple belt. Yeah. That's what Thing isn't it. It's it's and we I think if you even talk talking about all, you know, change the standards through a accommodate female. I'd like, just... No. No. Not the comment. Changing the stand to make it easier to pass with less physical capability with your emanuel a woman. That undermine the whole thing. You take away from me. There will be. Yeah. There will, like, if use said. There will be a woman woman pass, it will happen. Yeah. It just takes in the same way as Yeah. You know, in the same way as as when blokes pass it is when when the blokes pass, it's not just because if physically capable, all the right situation needs to be the right. The right the right person Yeah. In the military at the right time that the hair of Har mentioned, Yeah. Many special for, you know, Mentioned, and then they think I wanna go for that. And then they start training in the right time. Start selection at the right time. They get on, you know, they from the trees, I mean, the right mindset, like you said, all that needs to come together. They were there were females out there just like the males that they were. More than physically cable or passing. Yeah. But they aren't in the right place at the right time in the moment too. Yeah. Be get into the position. You know don't we'll do it. We usually to have this conversation with the peak company. And the marines, and and then now we're... I think we've 2 or 3 girls have bus company. Mh. 2 or 3 passive the command, of course. You're right. At some stage, I just don't think it'll will happen well I'm, I think. Yeah. No... Because I'm looking at statistics really. You know, when you think Parachute regimen probably send per selection. About 40 people. A maybe 4 or 5 will plus out of that. Female turns that turns up so we've have 3 female turn up different selections. And how many Oh, what 3 of jennifer for her... Are you mean peak company me? No. For her hair. Couple on every got past the... What's say the bait ups star. The briefing cost. Yeah. So... Yeah. Which which should do be. I I didn't... What's a briefing course. John. Just to up and day 1 was selection. Yeah. Yeah. I've follow. Yeah. There's no filtering in. No, not never nevermind. Yeah. No. He's just rock off. Ready? You turned up at the s lines when it used to be the old australian lines Red Hill in in Har. Yeah Check on a Sunday, you then did AAB on the... Not a B Cf on the Sunday. Bizarre, some people failed it, running a ramp on T. Some people failed it. Those a young lad who... So there's was... We out a 4 on room. There's 2 2 lads from, Pathfinder, me, and and Who's Military Don handler, Be. And this is on the Sunday morning. And the poor role it was on the Saturday night, it was on Duty, at the officer's mess with his job. No no support. Backup up from his unit when he came. So unfortunately failed the the Safety pretty miserably visibly. Which is great for us because it meant that we have more room in there. You know Like so it's bad went up and, you know, and if any sort decently kit that he had, you know, just leave it there. And and it was strange because, and that was it then that all 3 was all past, you know? So he was off So he left on day 1, 6 month plate, the 3 was still there like, you know, so bizarre. But that that's the difference between some units supporting their blokes going on selection. Because a lot a lot of units actually feel as if you're dessert, you know, your old unit to go A22. Well, actually, you you're give me your regiment a bit of kudos if you pass, and and that's sound really there's they should look at it because there's a lot... You know. I was quite lucky 2 9 Commando, who I was with up in Ar, gave me a massive amount support. You know, they gave me 2 weeks. With a land rover, to go and do all the the rec routes around, you know, Ce bridge and and on the b Beacon. So And that's fantastic because it it just gets you into that mindset and understanding the roots, which is quite important. You know, there's nothing worse in turning up on selection have been never done the penny fan, for instance. So some units are are quite good. And, generally, the the people that will pass, normally, the people that have had good support from their units. Selection is not the sort of thing you do, where you haven't had that that beat up and that that address. So I think they the the thing that they do now with the briefing course, I think is is brilliant because it it just puts everybody on a level playing field. There was a massive un unlabeled playing field in our day. You know, the powers are all there switched on. You know, that they're done it. Commander forces, and marines and that, lot, same milk. But then you've got some of the other units turning up, obscure units, I suppose. Fully capable of pass selection, but let down by by the units without because they never got the the preparation. And that's why I always say that when I pass election, the the first bit up down the hills, which she's the easy part, apparently. I always class myself has being lucky to pass that. Wait Either that? Well, III mean, I fell failed my first 1II was quite bizarre, ready, because I, test week, second day of Test week, I woke up in Helicopter and the reason being it is it was 19 86, and, it's the first time ever that that they canceled test week or postponed test week. Because of the weather really, really bad. So the weather hadn't improved a week later, hadn't improved so what Lads? We're just gonna go for it. And, and unfortunately, if you're the first person off a truck, doing a route. You're you're gonna be trail blazer. And on the second route that we did, which was Valley, which is hard enough as a air because it's quite bog. My angle called off and I and I was first off. So and and ben mind, the snow was up to your crutch. Plus the weight of the bergen. So it was hard going. But because your keen is must, you know, you determine blah blah blah. I I actually got to about the fifth checkpoint and the chief instructor, or s wade you were up there. I've as that in then Oh, it's probably 2 thirds of the way around, and they... As far as the room in total? The room in show or war. Probably 25 kilometers. Okay. Similar on that. So so fully into it And I and I thought I was was doing alright? And no 1 had saying me probably reasons it was quite difficult to him. Take someone. But they advised me to step off, go and take the burger off and go and have a have a brew, go and get a cup of tea. I'll ignore that advice because I... You know, as you do, keen roster it down and find. Because III thought that was maybe a bit of a test. Yeah. So it ignored it. All I remember is going up to the final checkpoint. And then waking up in Helicopter. And it wasn't until when I was in them sick by, back in Her, the Ds came up and and explain what had happened and and he said, what happened is? You came up. You took your burger off. I told you the next grid reference, which was up final checkpoint, and it was all downhill from there, so quite easy going. I suppose. And I picked his petersburg, put it on final and ran completely the opposite direction costs. Yeah. So they they they obviously know that somewhat Messi here, and rugby Chap brought the helicopter in. And and it's was just a bizarre feeling waking up in a helicopter. I don't know. So so you you'd start to go mentally because of the conditions. Yeah. Yeah. I'd I've gone completely. Oh, right. Yeah. But I know I hadn't recognize that. What was the good condition? It was exhaustion. A bit hypothermia. Thrown in with that All, it was was really bad weather. So when they said get a brew, you knew, like... Yeah. Fuck Yeah. Absolutely. And that's maybe be the dick ignoring the advice, and I should have stopped and have the thing. But, you know, yeah. When when you're when you're on Sas selection. You just... Everything is the test. You you think everything is a test, and you just wanna go full out all the time just to. But the worst feeling in the world is is spain an selection because I actually thought that they were allowing me to continue the because on... When you do the hills, you, you're allowed 1 Ji is warning as they call it. And and I and I just thought... That's for warning. I'll be good to go tomorrow. And the training major came in and said, actually, you know, you're off offline, you know? Wrote a fantastic report back to Ar saying, let's let's get H you back on the the summer of course. And, unfortunately, that all went out the window because I I then met my future wife. So then then put it off. So so yeah. It's, yeah, it it's a bit bizarre. Could... You know, I was dedicated to to passing this election and then not passing it. Was a bit of a kicking this evening. And and, you know, Bear in mind that a lot of people that do selection, it's there be all an end all. It's... They they're they're gonna do a selection, but don't get. I'm getting out. And and that's how they they felt I see some great soldiers. The best soldiers because they they they for some reason, they end up not passing selection 2 or 3 times. And, you know what, the majority you're seeing. I'm I'm he's I've seen some great orders I mean, probably 3 or 4. And almost every single time. They have just had bad, bad luck on the selections they failed. You you know that's why at my only, I class result has been lucky. Because of you you just alluded to there, the there's some brilliant young lads out there, who have done selection, but the, I would make fantastic Ses soldiers, but the bodies have just gave it up on them they've got picked up and injury or bug bites, junk jungle. Absolutely. You know, but bit of driftwood sort of falling down on you and all that sort of thing. Yeah. It's there is a lot of luck involved in and get yourself through selection, especially that first bit. Because when you when you think when they do the fan dance, you know, that's really cut throat, massively cut throat because there... There's no there's no second chance on on Fan. And some sometimes, some people used to have it on the second day of. Because when when I first did election actually, it was a 4 week period. So that hill... So the first week was learning a map reed, and and, you know, and it. It was very fast. Yeah. Yeah. I'm absolutely. It was a bit fast really. Because you you you just went on on route marches, you know, and and they everyone took in time. Doing that. Why were people not because people weren't turning up with the ability to map. No. I think it was just the way I'd run for for many, many, many years, and then they obviously clicked on the fact that you should be what I'm at brave before you come here. And that's when it went... And that's when it got shrunk down. So I I think I probably did the last 4 week 1 and then when I went back. So the 1 1 the 1 I came off was 4 weeks, the 1 that I passed on was, 3 weeks back to 3 weeks because they cut out the that nonsense century, and it was Nonsense, you know, got... But I think it's just people out because people used to come and think, oh, you know, that first week, you know, I can get yourself hi and stuff like that. And that's not how Seo selection should be. You know, you should be good to go from day 1. So they they've then some courses, they had the fan dance on day 2. We were lucky. It was on the Friday, so you had a week really, I they you did dependents. But the fan is quite brutal because you can have an off day, you could be the fitness guy in the world, have an off day. And you're off... You're off. Yeah, because there there's no time limit. The the you don't know what the time limit is, and, literally, like a horse race, you know, the the instructors they all get together and go, you know, decent weather, Nice and sunny. Grounds not too, but cutoff off time is 3 hours 50, and they're just a red line. You blow red line. You're gone or on that red line and below. Gone on that And that's where you lose sent odd people, 8 your people. In 1 day. It it is quite brutal, but it is it's a a sobering experience that, yeah, that you you know that you need to do your homework, especially in the hills and stuff like that. And this is where the the young Lads who turn up who don't have, that, back from units. They turn it suffer. But I'd say really, really good guys who have let's say gone on to to be stars in the regimen. Struggle because they're having a bad day. And they were, like a hair's breadth away from failing, Failing the fund won't you know? Because... Because that that, you know, that is 1 thing that is really Brook... Because Everyone assume, you Essay sas selection is a bit like that stuff that you watch on tell, that people shouting and and screaming, but it's none of that. No no 1 shouts years old because they they want self motivated people. And it, you know, trying to explain that to people that have watched Who knows Wednesday you know, and it brutal or that... Is that what it's like a real 1? No. And and that... And that's why people are are drawn and a trap attracted to the Sc sas because you're trading like adults, You know, there's another bullshit side of it. And... Do you think that show though, in particular is is a good thing for from the perspective of, like, public... Not public relations, but public opinion of special forces? No. I'd I don't actually S. I And I think probably Billy is the... Billy Billing is probably the best person to... Because he he was actually an instructor on the on selection, real selection. And then something's on there. And I did chat to about it, and he said back Tv. It it's it's what... You know, you you can't run an Sas selection how it's really wrong because people are just fall asleep. There's no shout. There's no screaming blah it. You know, they just send people up in the hills, and then you go back down and, you know, It's not great Tv. So it it gives a massive, it it, you know, it's made, you know, people like billy and stuff of that, and Joseph Box or whatever, household names, I suppose. But it's not Essay sas silicon, and it's nowhere near it. If if that I makes sense. And, I suppose if you speak to anyone that has been through that and been on selection. They'll all say the same thing will load a bullock You know, but for the Chevy watching it. And, yeah. They they they love it, you know, but it but it's... They were near it, like, you know, no. No comparison. If that me. That's a especially when you get a female. You yeah, A female what I'd never happened. But, you know, it it's cheaper. You know what I mean? And and, you know, I think it's damaging for the opinion of of a chef. You now I don't think so. I think I think people, you know, people don't know any better. Yeah. Watch it and think, oh, god, that looks hard. Yeah. Those those Sas guys must be really cut You know you know what I mean? You know you don't know anything else. Could Yeah. I mean, to be... To be honest, because I mean, you look at the lads that are actually on it. You know, they're they're all really decent lads. You know what I mean, and and I I it a bit, you know. I've done it for so like, you know. But, you know, when the weights portrayed is, you know, totally different reality. We know it. It's like military guys watching a war film, I would never happen, you know. But for the average savannah so watch it. They love it, and and it's great Tv. So long may it continue, if that makes sense, But, you know, comparison wise. Dropping cheese. Yeah. I. You only the other interesting I thing it's done is is I say interesting. I think it's opened in it's get it it's opened up to much more much more people leaving s and like that, alternative career pathways. Yeah. I think. Yeah Yeah. And I don't just mean on the Tv, but just by the fact that those guys been on that show and doing that thing. Yep. They all have their own books. They all has spin off things you love them businesses. I... I think it just provides... Hey, look, hey. You don't need just just need to get out and be Yep. Consultant here or risk management here or, you know, bodyguard here. There's... All these other stuff you can do. Which I I think is clear. I think was so narrow minded when we leave. Yeah. No. I'm not narrow. Yeah. Nana I reminded when we leave. And Was speaking, obviously. I'm not S. I'm speaking for my background. Yep. Narrow mind relieved that the more opportunities we've shown. Yep. The better. Yeah. Just look at, Jay Morton, it's a perfect example. Only Jay Mo was on the show for a couple of series on 1 series at least. He's race he's a race driver now. You know And we were you from Par. No know he's a racing drivers. Got out and. He wouldn't have been doing that I show and existed. Yep. You you know, Do you sense? Yeah. It does. Absolutely. I... You know, it's funny because I... I was on the glass wine with Billy. In the Ko Club Her and and talking about how Hawk and C coming. And he said, mate never... Ever forget Sas, and and then 3, he says because they're open quite a few door. So so a lot of our a lot of our stuff. I have the the Sas badge on there. As part of the thing. And and we're now we're now branching out into going... Doing motivational talks. I gave what go doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Great. I mean, you're doing it through the company. So... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Through through hooks... So I've got a slightly different banner. So because we do, we're trying to get into rural. Security based on the fact that we should breaking the farms over in Northern ireland, and so we know how criminals operate. And so it was all y'all you know, they'll all poach your own gatekeeper mentally mentality. So we we can really help the the farm industry. We we've all already been down to dark more to help. Farm. I'm not a big fan of the farm industry, because they can do a lot more to help the average farmer. The average farmer doesn't have a lot of money, struggle, thinking getting pressure from the supermarkets. Royal crime, you know, but they'll lose a tractor and, you know, insurance companies. Yeah. It won't get you a new 1. But by the way, your insurance premiums are gonna gonna go sky So the average farmer, are you look how many farms have actually ceased to operate now. 1 because they can't get insurance, they they're becoming totally ina incur, uni unsure. And, and that's why their suicide rate is is is massively high, we should be helping these people a lot more. So I got calls from a farm in Dart more, saying can, can you help us out? And how much how much is it gonna cost? I said, well, Her referred to pay the fuel from for me to get down to plymouth, or dart more, and a bacon sandwich, and and that would do like, you know? So I went there spent 4 hours 4 4 or 5 hours down there going through rural situation awareness, teaching them how to deal with So basically did is a freedom. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and the reason being is they deserve it. You Mean. They they don't have a much of amount of money. So what what we're trying to say to the Interview and the insurance companies is is you tell me what the... Where the problem farms are and we'll go and we'll go and help them we'll put an arm around them. They the n fu and and a the big, you know, N nfl mutual, they big insurance companies. They They're blowing all the bridges, and and it's the same as they're all crime units. The all crime units work really, really hard, but they're under underfunded and the under demand. And they going back to the dart morph farm. First question was when when's this the last time you had a chat with a policeman 5 6 years ago. Because they're knock knocking on doors and and, you know, hire... You know, this is made you know, any problems. They also had 40000 pounds worth of, you know other wrapping that you put around hay bales. Yeah. The black the black. Yeah white or the way in it. Yeah. So they they had 40000 pounds were worth a ranch stolen from a barn. Rang they obviously rang the No response. Right. Here's a crime number. Now the sad thing about that, and this is where we can help ready. Is have been police not wanting to go down there. I'm not saying that we're gonna go down and do what the police do. But what we can do is we can put an arm around the farmers and say, listen, the reason that was stolen was, you know, that that's let's see if we can help you out and improve your security and and... Because what at the moment is people will lose an item tractor. They'll claim off insurance, no improvement to those security 6 months late, criminals coming back. Knowing full well, but there's no improvement. And they've connected once, that's Nick a brand new 1 now. And it's that vicious cycle. So they shipping the think in that situation They're shipping it out. They are, and a lot of it is going straight up So that night, tractor will be over, some of the criminals are quite kinda. Very clever individuals to be honest that they're not in jail for really good reason. But what they'll do is if they're concerned that there's a tracker on their vehicle, they'll stash it. Normally, on a local another local farm, they'll they'll hide it away. And then I'll come back to it 2 days, like, and if it's still there, they'll they'll then pick it up, put it on a low loader, and it'll go straight. To, straight to the ferry poor and gone over Eastern Europe. It's a it's a... Royal crime is a massive to stain really on the on the farming industry, but more needs doing for So the n few and they mutual and stuff like that. They they need to be helping the the the farmer, a lot more. The average farmer, not not the big farms I I did a presentation quite recently down in Wilt. I mean my daughter went down there. And they want it's... They wanted a different angle. So we went down there, and we were up there. Typical police briefings and stuff like that, you know, blah blah blah. All still be on the day given their little presentation statistics and all these pumps. And then and then... So we we were first straight after after after dinner. And I said, listen, I've you Have you got a mic that I can just put on here because, you know, I don't like standing behind on, you know, a bit of a robot on it. I'd like to walk around it. Yeah. And before I said anything, I said listen, guys don't get offended by what I'm gonna say, but you need to know this. You know, we've been talking to farmers. I said, but you're losing the hearts and minds. That the hearts and mines has gone. Because the average farmer has no respect for the police at all because they'll report 40000 pounds worth us and you don't even bother going out there. So that that bridge that used to be there has completely gone. And that's where we think we can help. And at the end of the presentation, and it was quite, you know, Direct. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's not probably not especially the senior people in there the probably who invited this guy. But the average sort of copper and they they're she said make... You can actually teach us what what you teach the farmer, it'd be worthwhile as knowing what you're teaching them. Because they are massively funded. And when you think Is the the second largest county in England, 8 people. They've got 8 people from the rural crime unit covering bring massive area. Now the n nfl pump a lot of money into the they... The sort of not the individual royal crime units, but they... The national royal crime unit. But only so much felt was down to the regional, although they the, you know, they the the small roller crime units and and it doesn't really improve what they've got. And when you've really got 6 people, trying to cover more 8 people. I think the largest rural crime unit is T valley. And they were 18 people. Mh. And that's the the biggest. And the reason been is they've got that link from rural in to the big big urban air... The big urban, rural your areas and stuff like that. It's a similar story across the border the police. Yeah, across everything. You know, I was I hadn't about it wasn't until tonight. I... Interviewed a guy Colleen and Don. A couple of years ago now for and he's next chief inspector think he was. A manchester police. Yeah. He's got a podcast called Tango Juliet or had. I'm not sure if we're still going. But I wrote talk about, the problem with police in a minute, Like, why, it said such a bad way. And when I was talking to him, he was give the example of, especially in rural areas or even just suburban areas. Someone calls a police said the literally isn't given they've taken away all the small police stations, world can't can't fund them anymore. So police, not only other less of them. You have to travel further to go and, you know, it's like a half hour or 45 minute drive to go and interview someone about... A theft for example. Yeah. And then I was talking to someone, you know I needed to a anecdotal thing. Of talking a copper who I didn't know cop. I knew when he was younger. Now Turns out a copy. He's in Essex area. And he's in Cha R live, and I was talking to him about night Now how how many people you on a night? Said, if you I told you, how many people we have available to respond to anything at night, you said you'd be horrified. Now I'll read into that. And I'll say it's less than it's 2 people or less in 1 vehicle. I suggest. Yeah. Because I'd expect at least 2 vehicles. Yeah. Fully manned, You know, to be available. And and it's same problem across the board. It is. And, you know, that's why rural criminals operate this is the professional gangs. 01:00 till 04:00 in the morning. No one's about. No. Hello know. No one's gonna respond to an alarm alarms, technical security, all that sort of stuff, waste money. Because it it holds no fear to the criminal And and the worst thing is, I'm not a big fan of security companies. You know, I've been dealing with them for 20 odd years. I know, what have you got there? Yeah. But this is why we're trying to... But this is why we're trying to be different. Yeah if that makes sense, because they the average security company will their mindset is how much how much can we we make on this? And, actually, you should be helping the fire. And that's why we said, listen, pay for the fuel bacon sandwich won't come and help you because they needed help if That make sense. Security company would never do that. It's not a industry. Money. Absolutely. And it's and it's a shame really because it's... You know, these poor people are trying to trying to keep your go in everything else. And so they need they need as much help as they can. They're not getting it the police not being able to give it because they can't, if I makes mentioned, they and if you are not giving them the right, you know, to to issue guidelines and procedures in that lot about security. If you issue that, any sort of security guidelines. You're a non security person. Your to speak Hayley. It'll go over the head. And it's the same as when a security company will go in there. Say, right, what or do will do a nice security assessment here. Oh, by the way, that's gonna cost you 2 grand just to get the assessment, and here's all the recommendation. And at the bottom of recommendations is, you know, it's gonna cost you about 20 grand To buy all this technical crap and it is crap. Because until you actually change the mindset of the farmers, all that fancy gadget site is a waste of time. Because the the guy who's operating it, all labor gate open, You know. And it and and that's fundamentally where it's it's it falls flat. Because the the key to rural crime it's not the royal crime units. It's not technical security. None of that. So farmer. The farmer himself. Yeah, so so this is where we're trying to change that that mindset and and just do something different. But but literally focus on the the farmer. Let's get him in the right mindset. Because you go on any farm, any farm, and there'll be a key left than the ignition of either vehicle, an H, not an H m. You terrain vehicle, quad, tractors, combine officers, keys are in the ignition because it's their it's their culture. And that and that's the way they do it. So the the farm in Dart mall got down there. 7... There were 7 vehicles parked in the courtyard 5 keys in the ignition. First thing we said when we went and listen guys. Keys ignition there. When you walked out on the main road, and you looked to the farm, 3 top of the range quotes, an all terrain vehicle of. In in view. You know, that listen guys in it. I think... And the worst thing really was they've got 5 working dogs Now these working dogs you put a lot of money towards them, they're worth about 10 grand. Purely because of what their skills that they bring to the table. And they're just running around, you know, then you pick 2 or 3 of them, or, you know, And that and that'll will exacerbate the farm because all of a sudden, they've lost the... You know, their they're... Professional help. If that makes sense. So so, yeah, we we we can do we could do better, but we need to go back to basics with with farmers and and get that mindset right? And and and that... And this is where it's great having my daughter with me. Could... The reason I got her involved in, specifically, the the personal personal safety, situational awareness, and and she does a break away and the the restraint training is she's more believable. You know, if I do it, that people are just, am, But, you know, access. Yes. But if she does it, females, youngsters, they they relate to acutely more than they relate to me. I you know, we did the scary bit of why you need to be a bit more switched on. But when she starts doing the... Or the breakaway stuff, It it's more believable. And yes, day was was a classic example. You know, Katie got throttle 6 times. So 6 groups went through. As she just picked, you know, 1 of our lads up the, you know, throttle me, you know, and, you know, you've got my permission to to apply as much pressure as you can. Really. Yeah. And and the jesus. And and is how to to to get. And and people look at it and go, flipping it all. That's a little female that can just push that guy away. This you know, get out of that move like, you know. So it it it it makes it more realistic for them, seeing a, you know, little slip of a girl doing it so she's been great. So when we're when we're dealing with farmers, and we're dealing a confrontation, a lot of the farm industry is female. So again, they'll they'll roll relate to. What you mean? Yeah. No receptive to Females. Yeah. The... Well, there's a lot of farmers that our female there's a lot of females in the farming industry. If that makes sense, You know, it's not all... It's not a male dominated industry. There there are many, many females out there. Thing... Yeah Would've have thought it was... Like, it is predominantly male though Right? It it's not things we think yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But... I would say... You know, just about every farm, the female is working on it. The wives of the farmer, for instance. So so what what we do, We don't just say, mike farmer. It's a family because the family have to buy into this as all. Because it's no good the farmer, you know, he's been taught, And then the the wife goes out there, leaves the gate open. Don't make any sense or the kids. So when we do this training, we train everybody. And it's the same as when we do active shooter training. Again, slightly different. So the police do it there way, mara ordering terrorist attack. But they they they teach certain individuals of a of a thing, of a corporation. So, you know, certain people get taught, whereas we've been teaching this now since the Paris attacks, 2015. Now we've been teaching teaching active all around the world. Initially, with. We as in hawk. No. Yep. Yep. Yep. And then H, we went over to Houston, teach a teach s how much, like, because they've got no 1 there now to to teach it. So we... We've been quite active on the active shoot side of it. But we tend not to teach the way the police teach. Run high hotel. We do run high fight. And the reason, the reason we do that, so when the police say they'll go in there. Yeah. So he explains in in basics. Yeah Yeah. So the police will or go to an organization and say, right. Your tens are problem people, managers blah blah, we'll teach you more order. Now that's great. Until the person they've talk gets at the back of his hr off, and then who's gonna stand. So that where we're different is we teach everybody. So that everybody understands what they're... What the the options are that they have and it and it they're obvious, you know, run run it with try and high or, run away if you can. But if you're on the seventh floor of a building, they're not gonna hide if you can, so, you know, that's why some, you know, proper places that you can hide. Maybe use chopped to chop door toilets are a brilliant because most toilets are in inward opening doors, so... And they've got no windows, obvious reasons. So they're ideal hiding places, you know, put a nice sturdy chalk under there. You know, get someone little eye on the floor with a foot on the chops so Gonna pause in. And if we do bla through, you know, it's it's gonna go above your, because nobody shoots down, not the average person anyway. So teaching them all that, that but the final 1, which is quite contentious suppose is the fine side of it. And the reason we do that is christchurch search, and the the when you look at the footage of christchurch church, nobody did anything. This is the christchurch script christchurch school shooting. Yeah. No. The the mosque. Oh on New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The and the mosque with the australian guy. And and it... It really... I and I use the footage release as. Not to show anyone else, because it's quite grim. But as a as a lessons learnt for me that that doing nothing is no longer an option. And and what we trying to explain is, same as a room like there, so there's there's nowhere to go. So guy walks in there with an k 4. Obviously, you're gonna shoot someone if a guy, an average guy walks in with an k 47, and there's 10 of was sat here. Someone needs to do something. Otherwise, this 10 is gonna be pushing days up with the rest of his journey. So it's encouraging, you know, people to say, let's say, your option is you need to take that guy out. And then what you're hoping on the day is that someone grows at and flipping goes at it. And if at the 10, if 5 people get shot dead, but they manage to over power. 5 of survived. Exactly. I'm doing nothing. It's the chen. It's... What you're seeing is common sense. Right? Common sense to use common sense me. I don't I know argue common sense more sent. Definitely common the most exile. Right? Now, Christchurch mentioned there, I... When, like, when you were talk and, about it, they run hide. Run tell and run hide fight. I've immediately thought the situation. I really... It was a high profile 1 last year or maybe the year before in America make up. And there's a school shoot in. Yeah. Another school shoot. Yeah. And it went on for, like, an hour or so before any anyone challenged to shoot. Yeah. But the police were on the put on point. They're in the on point. They were on sight within something like 10 minutes. Yep. I did nothing. Yep. And you can hear the... You can... Because it's obviously, there's the footage of it. You can hear the gunman shooting in. You can hear people screaming. There's there was there was mothers. Trying to get into the school to go, I am fucking gonna go and get my trailer when leisure would do. Yeah. And they sat there just lay the hat. And if III remember watching it back because I I walked through the whole situation after the fact not live. Watched through your situation thinking. I might go mad you. Why is it? Why is no 1? Going in. Yeah. You. It's it's the old adage of, the best 1 of of defense is attack. Yeah. You you can't... You cannot not do nothing and the longer something goes on, the worse it gets. Yep. The thing they're least expecting is an immediate attack. Immediate attack. Yeah. You know, Yep. The figures were a the police training here, and this is why we're tend to ignore it. And that's no just straight to the police. They've police watching them. Love the please. Yeah. It's it's it's because it's all geared to a police response. Now you know and I know that a terrorist insulin is gonna be done dusted and finished before the police get there. So it's... And the people then the phone line of any terrorist attack is not a policeman or military guy that that people, you know, or the security guy. Yeah. Is probably the person that we taken it out. It's a general public, You know, it's it's a general public that need to understand, you know, what are all about. And and that's why pretty sorry, we were... So we've got a head office in, Monaco, and we saw active shooter in monaco, and all the skeptics. In Monica, You know, the worst thing that happens in Monaco is if someone 1 drops a, you know, the glass of pink champagne and, you know, you, and that, you know, and that a major incident. You know I mean? So we're ran down there and listen guys, You know? Because what we... What we're trying to do is trying to get every office all on the same sheet. I mean, it. So if you went in Brazil, you'd understand that if it, you know, if you went a monaco, you went to, like China, Malaysia, angle angola and Nigeria wherever, you all... So all they all they emergency evacuation plans exactly the same. So no matter what office issue went to, it was all the same, and you didn't have to change anything. The so when we did the shoot Brazil all over the world, Monaco, skeptic, you know what the french you're like, Oh, yeah. And you know, why do we need to do this? Literally, 6 month later, attacking these. 80 ages 7 people dead. Most of our most of our employees live in these, and the feedback was, Yeah. We're glad that we actually knew what what, you know, roughly what to do like, you? Sure. Another another... I can't why I didn't think of this. Another obvious. Great example of that getting straight in there would be Craig had in Nairobi? What would the casualty count of been in does it to in that for... In that shopping complex? What would the casualty count have been if Craig hasn't been there as know hadn't gone it. Yeah. It could have been a lot higher than what it was. Yeah. Absolutely. And and the sad thing is is he was slated for doing what an Sc rcs guy is trained to do, You know, your natural instinct. If you've got a weapon in the back of your car, cool fashioned, a bit like Northern Ireland, we've got a guy search. Guess what We're gonna get him out. Well, the way he's been treated as a fucking. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Embarrassing. Is embarrassing. I mean, I can't... I don't know what to deal obviously. Not gonna deal this, but I'm I'm, I reckon you know probably a little more on what I know back kind of. And. It is right. What what what surprised me with it? Just quickly on it is. He's... Here is the most He is the best poster boy for special forces in the Modern era. Yeah. Well, I mean, the story of it, he's just legendary. And he in a lot of people's eyes is like a fucking god. Yep. He's the best poster boy for s. Yeah. You know, for... A fact, for British forces Yeah. For British military. Yeah. You know? And why why they didn't see that? And and I'm talking? Why they don't see that? And why do they to resist against certain things? Like, it's public about his book has been rejected? Yeah. Why any resistant against stuff. It's madness to me. Yeah. It's madness to. Yeah. Yeah. No. Was true. It... You know, it's funny because quite a few years ago. There's Za lot who was kicked out the regiment. It was sort of deemed us as been a bit of a trouble. It was a cracking lad, got himself in trouble 1 and it and he got he got absolutely hammered for it. Purely because, you know, his bosses didn't didn't back him up like, you know, and he was a really good guy. So he he was now out. He was a si. He was on a plane to South Africa, Berkshire Airways point South africa. So I kicked off on the on the flight. This lad said, listen, I can help you. You know, this my background. She went over there, filled the guy in. You're a smack him and and calmed him down the plane in The. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Calmed it all down, managed to get him sort of strapped in. And and he was actually sat with him, So he told me tried I kick off And just give me a quick slap to remind him. Because they appointment meant... They put them in first class out the way. So so I This slide was sent with him. Brick airways, when it landed, they they organize for this lads to to get picked up, Shelby. Car. I they gave him... I think it was around the world flights, you know, a blah blah Now that, he should have been the poster boy. Mh. You know, hector Fc guy, you know, bridge not not interested. Bad luck. It's old school thinking. Yeah it's archaic thinking. Yeah. Absolutely. You need to you need to ride these waves of of of, like, support behind these people and go, how can we take advantage of this? It's like it's like a a cooperation with do. Okay? Yeah know. We rather he didn't follow the process. Yeah. Absolutely. But it's working out pretty well for you yeah. And, he's looking pretty good. Yeah. So... Yeah because when you think about it everything... If he hadn't done that, all the regiment lads well a slight idiot, I actually the be Ba you talking. Craig. Craig. Yeah. You know, you know, you shouldn't done that. Blah. So he does it, which is is natural instinct to do. I think it's... Absolutely. How bread. Yeah. It's just, yeah, ridiculous really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. Yeah. Frustrating frustrating all around ready, But you're right, you know, he should be because every everybody, you know, the american... You know what the Americans are like, You know, but they would have treated it totally different. And it's probably why is probably bought more well thought or over in the states than over here like, you know? S like... Wow. Like, you if you look at it, on stage with Trump, You know what I mean? I say on the stage you, you know, the like, ex president, Yeah. No, giving him and Where's where's our Pm when you know? Where's our Pm when you deduct? You know what I mean? Anyway, that is thank. Goodness meet. Right. We, on the... I just wanna come come back to something you mentioned a ice breaker. Bosnia. Not aware of this story. So you got you got captured in Bosnia. Explain this to me. Yeah. It's quite shocking actually. So so I'd literally just finished 2 years doing uncovering in Northern Ireland. What his late nineties of ticket? Yeah. It was 90 id 3 94. Oh like that. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. So the height of the atrocities over. I. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So we we had quite quite busy period really over in Northern Ireland. So finish we ended did a bit on the and harris team, but then then we deployed to, which I look over from H H1. I think it was doing the the change around. And Billy and the boys had had deployed before me. I was doing something else and so I was a a sort a late arrival so got over there. And we were cha really. We were up in a place called b hatch, which is in the the saw northeast of the country. And it was an inquiry that had stood the ground. Surge couldn't take it, and it was fine 5 core Muslims, local called General d djokovic, yeah, quite quite robust and original quite down. But he it's on, kept the kept service out. Great. Alright. Thanks. So so that's where we were based. Now at the time, we were we were tasked with them. So Billy been out there about a month performing. We were tasked 4 of us to set up a meeting between a serve general and a muslim general. Not crap. It was just 2 people. And it was really... The the meeting was all to do with them the the peace lines are you know, what where troops should be pushed back to and this on the other. Really ready for when the daytona a peace agreement came in, so that it was just the the little things that needed sign in. So it wasn't a special meeting in our own like that. So so we set the meeting now the day before, so we reckon the area. Mean, Billy. And we we actually went down to the surf line, had a chap the serbs had a sliver rich as you do in in our coffee. Had a really good chat with them. Came back and said, yeah, What, you know, well, more probably come down and how we chat with you tomorrow. David me, set it all up. 2 lunch stayed with the Un people, that were... It was a danish organization. So, you know, but we we set the maintenance up. So got the meeting going too stable with that and then me Billy. Same as what we did the day before went down, had a had a chat with the service. On the way down, it was obvious that that the situation was slightly different. I've been on to us that because of the general was now here. They've brought their decent troops forward. And we... The way the Sas operated in Bosnia at the time. We we just didn't look like Un. Never used to wear any insignia. No berries helmets, body armor. None of That's all gosh. Didn't just went about just normal more Dp stuff and a and a pistol crack on. And the reason we did that is when you're dealing with frontline organization you need to earn their respect, you turn up with your helmet, when they don't have it, you tend to lose that that respect. So so we just used to. Because they were they were supplied pretty pretty yeah. Absolutely. Yeah schedule right. Not a market. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Absolutely. So so that... And we found it it worked really well. And and a lot of it as well as the Un were under a massive amount of restriction. So we'd be restricted. So without having all that rig, we could just... We... To be honest, we we ignored, any U un restriction the applies was. I we just cracked home for that like, you know. The serves in that lot, and the the muslims obviously try to enforce it, You know can't come up here really out the way. And and we... Just get on it. And it and it was great for... He general Smith or 1 of the generals who was down because he knew that he had these little 4 teams being able to send back, you know, proper reports, not restricted reports because the Un can couldn't actually get the information. You know, we just went out and got it. It's sent the meeting it went down there, slightly different now with the frontline troops. And we spoke to him somewhat because they must've locked up and thought. So they don't look like you in. You know, there's with a weirdo with long blonde air and and Billy. Just rocking up. So we think we spooked him, because the people that we spoke to the day before had gone, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So sure so we were shrouded by about 889... Serves, all bids, long air, not lot you could do. You you're not gonna win a a shoot out with someone 1 point an k fortunately Haven't not you. You know? So, yeah. Okay. Fair 1. So they took our pistols office, took magazines off, took our maps. Notebooks. So there's a lot of shout when it. So it was used point was just point weapons 8. Yeah. No It was... Yeah. A lot of shouting all. East serious rose, But they dragged us into a house, like a, like a farm building, just off the main road. Did do you think you were military cool or something? Did they? They... Part of... Did they think you were part of planet a military cute coup or something? No. No. I I... Haven't got clue what they thought, but they... That that they... Because they they were on hire alert because they they've got their serve general down there. So all of a sudden, these 2 mis that rock up, that don't look like you when, You know, who who was or something like that? Yeah. So it was just because it was different. So so the drug is in there, and it and it was a quick, you know, tactical question initially, You know, blah blah. Now Billy Billy spoke he'd learnt a bit sober. Crap. So he spoke a bit so by crap to them. I hunt. I'd literally been in country 2 weeks, Northern Ireland before that I know nothing. So they were shot of talking to Belly more than what they were talking about if That makes sense. So... And our Id cards, Bizarre, what there was 1 number different between on our Id cards and and that's not relevant harm but it was... Yeah. I Like... So when we then... So they then decided that we needed to go further back. So they put us in a in a land cruiser. I and there was a a big rough and red lad was in the passenger seat. There's a major who was doing the interrogation was the joint... Over. Let me billy the back. So we off we went flying down the road, back to a place pre all. And and mean Betty were just to each other. And it was great for us because we were we were seeing all the know, because no would've been this far me. Got me lines you know, all, fantastic. You know? All look, tanks. Great ready. You know, getting in... Trying to get all the information and trying to store it in your head. So we will whisk bread away. And then all of a sudden, they the the major said to to this guy got his spam round or, you know, big lump of the guy got a turned round with his a k 47. And he cock it. And a main billy automatic typical squad, you expect the the k to be already caught because you're on the front line. And for some reason, I don't know if it's nerves or... But we we started laughing, which didn't go down to well. Because we looked to each other went... It's just caught weapon. So you were lap, so you alive at the fact Got. But it wasn't. But basically bad drills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what that's what what you doing the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Front light troops be. Around the whichever oil times. 50 press. Which didn't go down well. So so that annoyed him. Obviously, annoyed the manger as well that these 2 Luna sections were now not taking its serious. So they were quite, from there, the the atmosphere. Slightly changed somewhat. Were are you panicking at that point? Not panicking, but we we... Were you fearful up to that point? I'll let I'll say no. The reason it is I've just gone back from Northern Ireland. If that makes sense. So having done a lot of money the cover working that lot, and and understanding a cover story. To be honest, some of the stuff that we do in in Boss Dear. Quite risky, if that makes sense. So you expect either to be shorter. Dear or certainly later, you know? So it wasn't unusual that at some stage, someone was gonna get captured or someone was gonna get shot and killed wait which is what happened. So, probably nervous maybe, but not not not overly. Could, you know, we just thought, you know, it's part passing the job I already. So we we got now down to p door, and they put us in a corridor or, quite quite an old corridor. I... But it was 1 of the camps that, was on Tv A lot. Because they... The muslims that used to get taken after interrogation, some used to disappear. But that evidence used to get fed, and you... It was a bit of a throwback to the old Jews 1 second wall war. It was amongst people. So was that camp... So, I got dragged in first interrogation, Bizarre, explain to them. Using a compass story, because the the big 5 doesn't work. You, They're right number. Not getting anyway. So the compass story. So my cover story was I've only been in country 2, 2 weeks. I'm a driver, just a driver, I know nothing. And they they try to get as much So... And you're know that, I got clear mate. No. No. No. So they got a bit pissed off and threw out in the corridor, and then Benny got dragged in. And because Billy had spoken a bit of server crap, they put 2 or 2 together and thought, Billy is the the Clever 1. He must be the senior man. And F out there, the driver is a waste of space sir, you know, we'll ignoring him. But but it was in there for about an hour. He then came out. I had to put him in the corridor. I was was it physical as well. Was outside it was it was intimidation, cooking. The odds sort of slap, knives, sort of digging them... And to your arrest pointing in the weapon. Yeah, intimidation. What, and we do that, you know, to know, we we knew that it wasn't in their in their interest ready to to kill 2 to... You we were gonna... I was gonna say Un because they didn't know we were you and apart on the Id cards because the Id cards said you went. So so then... So Benny got dragged in. So when he not thrown out, I was then expecting to be to be that 1 in, You know, there. But they came out, and they grabbed all the billy again, and and, yeah. And... But it was in there another hour. Blah blah blah blah Thrown out. And you know, all this time, I'm just sat the corridor, I thinking, you know, what's gonna happen here? Third time, again, Billy. So it was it was all all billy. You know, mister Thick in the corner, waste the space. Eventually, after about 5 interrogation, they put us close together, and so of Billy went across and went... Pluck it album mate. What what did you tell them? I went sorry mate, but You know? I just said I'm the driver. But he said, yeah. But I'm the driver. And it was typical. Typical squat mentality, snooze your lose weight. Mean. But they... What they'd clicked on is the server crap. That Billy was... And and that's why they were they were hammering him with all the questions like, you know, because they just assumed that a, who knew more than what you was... What were they well they want them to know Just what unit you're, what you're doing there? Yeah. It was... An... Yeah. Initially, it was who we that they had an Inkling that we were S seo. And the reason the reason Sc ses were not very well thought of by the serbs. I think because you had Sarajevo, and and it was us an Sas squadron a true Sorry, or patrol within the stroke that who'd actually brought in the fast jets onto... I'm so so paul before they actually took the town itself. So they were they were sort of looking for Sas patrols. So they had an inkling that we were possibly Sas, but no proof, all our maps and everything else. Was sterile as as you've talked to do. So we had nothing on us really to to to say that we were actually. And we certainly was we're gonna tell them. If that I makes sense. So so I think that's where their their interest were was sort of spiked up that they've they've got 2 quite important people here. So how we how we got show that... You, so this is 5 6 hours later. Now in the meantime, the other 2 adds at the meeting. The light infantry I'd put they had a warrior midway between, the the meeting place and and where we've got taken. No man's. And they'd reported bank ready that Bully mick turned off, you know, some messi. So the 2 lads sap they rang Sarajevo, and called general. And he said, listen, no no dramas. Just go in and arrest the serb general, tell him he's under arrest, and that is gonna be taken to be hatch and believe you may serve going back to be You know, the place that they've been trying to get hold of for for many a year, I suppose, full of Muslims was complete dread to that like, you know. So so he he had his own sat phone, so he obviously got on the Sap phone, contacted his people, I'm it all changed the atmosphere has changed. All of a sudden, we were, you know, okay, you know, putting the back of the vehicle, drove us back. Gave us our back. Gave us everything back up where you had was, and then sent on on our way. So it was a bit surreal. So literally you walking back. Maybe, Billy is sort looking at each other thinking. Real. That was a bit bit usual. But the good thing was is we never made a song dance about it. You know, it wasn't it wasn't a big issue. You know? It was. Been been captured. Yeah, You wake up in the morning and, you know, what happened yesterday. Oh, yeah. Haven't not captured it, but, yeah. No dramas. So we we kept it really low key. So the only people that knew about it with the other 2 patrol the members, the Squad commander knew about it and maybe water or 2 other people, and obviously, the general. No 1 else. So all the Squadron, Or Squadron, beech. Nobody knew about it and quite bizarre, when Billy was on who days winds, He he starts talking about escaping evasion and being captured and all this sort of thing. And he was getting phone calls from Beast woodland. Saying, you've never been captured. I saw a bullshit, he went actually. We're Yeah. And and that's really really where it it came to light when Billy, so talking about it on on his the Who days rinse thing like, you know? So... Yeah. So so it... It's actually nice. So mean Benny, when we sit down and talk about it, It's funny how things are slightly different. You you 2 people. You remember things slightly different. Barely allude to the fact that the guy when he soon Randy, who put the ak in his in his mouth and, you know, whereas as high for me, that was a bit of a blank. I I don't remember that at all, if that makes sense. Purely because I'm probably thinking of someone else. So your power recall is totally different too to someone else's. He can he can he can remember things the camp whereas it's whenever over my head like, you know, I didn't remember that. Yeah. That's especially true. I think, it's much more obvious when you have, like, situations like that, which are high draw off 1 and Yeah. I experienced that myself. I won't go through the... I, I won't good the story, but I put I, we... Me and a few others got interviewed by military police, month or so down the line. Yeah. After a about a bad incident and happened. So So we each of us got individually just to to explain what I happened because. People have been killed. And and then asked students. We got together we sat on a brew. And we talked through... We hadn't talked through it. Yes. Since since it actually happened. After we talked to the police we talk through it and in talk and through each other. I realized. I got AAAA chain of events, completely the wrong way around. Yeah. Completely, But in my head, and even to this day, I'm convinced that's how it happened. Yep. But I... I'm not convinced. I believe... No. I remember that's how it happened the chain events I think. Yep. But I also I'm wrong because 3 other people remember it in a different way. Yeah. So I think. Yeah. Hi, miss. I it's they're trivial things these chilling events, but They're they're that significant way I I should obviously remember how that but don't. Yeah. Because again, that recall, especially, and it gets worse of a time. Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think I think because of the stress of the situation as well, that that clubs a lot of bit. And all that so. And and you're right, you know, over over time. I mean, you were talking 93. Stuff like that I was on I was on a podcast talking about the issues. And I called it a, yeah, heavy mobile support unit and someone quickly said, it's not it's headquarters, you know, and I'm like, hold on. I don't can't remember. But I can't remember my crap from, you know, fair know. But... Yeah. So, yeah, over... You know, we're we're we're all fall. As you get older, you recall slightly different. Oh, this is the problem with legacy prosecution. Is it not? Is that... Well crazy it? Yeah. But we we always say that if you if you ever get dragged in, the only thing you should add, but ever say is refer to my original statement and nothing else. If if you've could give 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing with... Yeah. This is... It's also something for for people aware of themselves this happens. You know, I think about... I I genuinely, you know, fear for down lane, myself or colleagues. Being dragged up in front of court for for some reason, I don't know. Yeah. You know, this is not me saying I've done illegal thing so if Fucking could haven't. But you never know what's gonna happen Or even just as a witness whatever you don't know. When you look at what's happening in North Ireland over the Us. You know? Yeah. And and it's when you see the civilian side, the witness sound the civilian sign. Think that do they realize that their memories may have been skewed on this? Their memory probably has definitely changed things because when you remember an event, you're not say 10 years online. You're not actually remember the originally original You remember the last time you remembered it. Yeah. People don't realize that. So it's like memories out have Chinese whispers. Yeah. And it all depends on how vivid the original memory of it was original activity was to how well you remember it in 20 years time. Yeah. You know. The the the other thing about the the historical shadow is the emotional side of it. And the reason being is, a lot the Ira people that been cut. And it's all their families now that are in arms. And the poor old 40, you know, his family not screaming out because he's accidentally killed someone or whatever Like, You know? So so... Or allegedly gave allegedly be. Yeah. Absolutely. So it... It's... The Poor squad on his own, whereas your all these families saying, oh, yeah. Yeah. Because, Bloody sanders is a classic 1. They all assume that that was a nice people. Yeah. That was far from peaceful, That demonstration. You only have to look at the picture. No. 72. But you only you only have to look at the pictures. I mean, the camera got dragged in. Purely because. The royal artillery, I think, but we're doing me they they were losing control, and the... You know, it needed some sort of control taking. And you only have to look at all their pictures. They amount of bottles, bricks and completely surrounding the floor like, you know? And when you're under the stress, and people are, you know, trying to cool you with these things happen in, in, you know, we've all seen it like, you know? And But because it was, you know, these supposed innocent people, and then all their families and then you get Tony blair, apologizing. Or whoever, might might be cameron actually, you know, apologize for police bloody Sunday, which I don't think was the right thing to do. That should come from a necessary. If we feel that an apology is necessary. Maybe is a press needs to be... No. Maybe a I thing needs to be said that, you know, over time, I'm not just talking about military things here, but anything really where if the only... If if if new evidence comes to light. Yeah. If that evidence is entirely Eye witnessed based. If that's all it's based on, then it doesn't get. Yeah. It's like, it needs to be material, like, literally stuff that isn't subjective in nature. Yeah it needs to be subjective. Yeah. Dna evidence, video evidence. Yeah. Anything like that. Because Eye witnessed testimony. The longer time was on is bullshit. Yeah. Is bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. But you can rely less and less and. It goes from, like, a 1 to, like f. 6. Yes. And what is the point? And, yeah. Here aren't they, still things like up been talking about North Ireland. Is no new material evidence. To my knowledge. You saw all are you witness testimony or these these accounts occur about. You curve about? How are they were like they're less reliable than they were then? Yeah. Yeah. I race. I just remember the bbc, program that came out about the Sas in operations in Afghanistan. And all the eye witnesses were you know, the mud people's friends, you know, and and obviously, you can get that side of it. It's just, you, mud. Yeah. I don't think people understand the stress that the average 40 goes under, a bet mine in Not on in m days. It was quite quite a dangerous place to go, especially in places like Belfast. And when you got people that that are, you know, trying to throw refrigerators or buildings to to land on you, and they just you. And if it does it, yeah, actually brown bread. People just don't understand that side of it, you know, the the psychological effects that that that has on a soldier. So that when when he does, have to engage or whatever. It may be for a slightly different reason. But but what I tried to lose you when I did that podcast with a very pro Ira or... What was the podcast forecast? What was that? It was an American guy. Nice guy actually. He invite us on there. And he... He's invited the guy before me was a bomber, you know, bomb maker with the Ira. And I just looked to, let 5 minutes of it where he said, yeah. Used to I used to enjoy going to bed at night, knowing that my bomb gonna go off. And you're like that? Hold on. K now. So so listening to that, I thought, you know, an excess Guy I need to go on there and say listen, And what it was, it was that, I was trying to trying to explain to the fact that squad is in general, they don't go to northern that ireland, and they don't wake up in the morning to say, I'm gonna kill someone today. Whereas is the ai ira do? And terrorist do. Squad don't. It it just happened. Some... An an incident, or all occur. And it'll be it'll either be a killing, or it will be an accident the the hammond, unfortunate, you know, and and these things happening in Warfare or in... Funny enough the the previous guest. Who was sat that chair about 3 hour about just about 3 hours ago. I mean, we were we were we were talking about this. There. But before I measure it, It does not gonna say. North Dangerous. So it tailed off, but it was still, like, a tailed off in the early Northeast there I went there in 2001, and I went in 2005. No, 2001 in 2004. And the guy who sat there this his name John Bree. John got. John got snatched out out was riot in... It was in London. And he got snatched into the crowd. He was nearly fucking gone. Yeah. Nearly fucking gone. The guy you got older of him and emotional drag up by king got it jaw broken. It was like nightmare scenario. Yeah. And that was o 4. So I can't... I... Yeah, I've heard the stories or it's, like, in the in the nineties and eighties, nineties, seventies eighties. Chris Yeah. What we were talking about on the on the previous podcast with John, is that what what else people don't realize and civilians don't really like, Especially siblings that we have this thing in the mind that soldiers are just cold killers. And special forces are just the assassin. I just had to do with the bidding of of the people with the money. You don't realize how drilled into us, rules engagement are, How drilled is was escalation of forces. How you was the importance of hearts and mines. How j was why collateral damage is bad and avoided it. You can. Yeah. And how how drilled into as the disciplinary procedure is in. There's very few instances I could think of when people have done things they shouldn't have done, and not had the full way of military law come down. Yeah. Very a few instances I can think of. You know, 1 I can think of. Mh. And in that 1 instance, there was no there was no civilian deaths. There was a civilian injury. There's was 1 instance I know that nothing that to this individual. Yeah. And if fucking should have But the other times, these people have been dealt with. And that's even in accidents. Yeah. Because even in the case of action, I'm talking about deaths and stuff here, I'm talking about just things like not providing in a food and water to a prisoner as you should be provided. Yeah. Yep. 2 other things like a reserve soldier, this something towards the end of the towards the end of the Iraq saw. You we had some Iraqi prisoners, and he decided to take it upon himself to dish out some physical punishment. Yeah. To 1 of Our iraqi soldiers. I was in the back of the Wagon when he did that. The other 4 or 5 soldiers are withers us, para Edge guys who withers us, we fucking pasted him. Like, didn't allow that to go on. We hammered him. For a million of reasons that shouldn't have been happening. 1 because the shock capture. Process all of estimate too. What are you doing? What you just bat this sky for no reason, you know? And that that... That's outside of the realms of formal punishment for that individual. It. The team took care of that because the team, and we were all Toms. We're all private. And knew exactly should let be doing it. It's something that about realize with the British forces. Hi highly trained. Highly trained in terms of killing us. Highly trained in terms of don't don't it, if we don't need to. I'm, you know, people tend to forget that the British Army are probably the forefront organization winning hearts and minds and and suddenly, unfortunately, now, that that trait is slowly being lost. And a lot of it is because we've we've been working with the Americas too long. Where, an example was the second gold war when it's brick forces took Ba quite quickly. All the people, ba people, all that area. Was in there. Yep. Yeah. Welcome to the British Army. Blah blah blah, blah. We should have been out handing it straight over to the police and out and gone. But because we did the American, yeah. Let's... We become an occupying force. And all of a sudden all that that hearts and minds that you initially won straight out of the window. If that makes sense. So. But northern ireland is brit... I I thought the old days of Northern ireland were brought in for british soldiers because we were so used to. It's a bit like the Israeli Army. You know, they're on active service from the minute they join the their military. Sever of Brett charming in the seventies 80 nineties, just just about 2000 I suppose. You know, you can go over there on 4 months or a 2 year tour, and you're in the V right away. And and it just made us a lot more probably you tune to the fact that you're, you know, there's some things you can do and some things you can't do, especially when you're dealing with the population. Just an example, my first toy in Northern Ireland with Chilean Commander was Saf, and and at the time, Catholics were the bad people because the Ira, and the pro were the good people. And that was the the mentality. And it wasn't until we did the the cob stuff with 14 that you realize that the majority of cafe people are actually really nice people. And it's only a tiny percentage that are bad people. But, you know, and it's like when you first go over there is a a Charm bit las South I'm more, you know, badlands, you know, out the wrong impression a bit like, you know. Yeah. I think the other thing people forget or don't live at island. I'm paying a bit of lip service to it. I especially the later generations of British British, the you just never went there. Yeah. Is that my guardian was difficult. It was regardless of what you were doing. Right? It was difficult in that. You were dealing with... You're dealing with the population. So population either side or or not on... And an enemy. Yeah say, Ira whether they were at the time, You know, it would be in the area we've been in the controlling or disrupting enemy force for 1 who a better phrase. They spoke to your language. They they know all the social the social. The the the visual cues. They... Like, they understand how you communicate. So the advantages are gone into iraq enough and I've afghanistan that where you don't speak the language. As disadvantages, it does. Yeah. But they also find it difficult to judge what you were saying in the little unspoken signals between me at a lot in a meeting Yeah. Or in the street or in a house somewhere. You get away with a lot. You could not get away with that normal. Ireland. Now, my experience there was limited rights. But from your perspective, you know, 40 then, you probably noticed better than anyone I spoke to and certainly miss Sal island health. You know, it's you easily get found out. A tell you what, and and that was... I I used to speak my hand now. A lot of foreign inch guys. What they used to do is try and put on a an irish accent, which I thought was bone because you said use talk to a bloody Belfast. Is he gonna lucky you think, what are you trying to put all above? So for me it was just English all the time. So I had long blonde hair. Big gold earring pirate rack, and they're Rick jeans. And if if people would come up corruption and and because it, you know, bit about. Yeah. They would engage in a conversation. I would just talk and as normal. Yeah. What shop wait? Fuck off, you know, blah blah blah. Never we used to shy away from it because as soon as you start to shy away from, if they're looking at you, are you shy all you've done is you just confirm what they're... What they they think the... Who you are. So the way I used to get around it is just gone confront them. What what's up? You know, what are you looking at? You know, blah blah blah. Speaking in English. And it's and it was good away because it it put them on the back foot. Yeah and I thought, obviously not a spotty because this squad probably would have would have shut away like, you know. And the other thing as well is is, what I found out as well. Is they're more concerned that I'm actually a Catholic or I'm actually protestant in, the other estate because we we were North Belfast. So you had the, the shank road, and the Ankle area, a Tigers bay, staunch Pro, right next door to the new lodge and also, they our doing storm... You know, I may forever trying to trying to kill each other, but. And that was a major concern. So as soon as you started go up in English, You could see that they, probably a bit more relieved, because you you're not from across Shank or, you not, from crossover over and. And then, and I remember again shots late at night, from Ira were putting a a mo together, and they needed someone to do walk past in the ar door. The ar doing is a very close. The environment, you know, back some of the back streets and the alley and stuff. So I did the walk and, and we we We knew. Oh, so a new for for for people listening. You... They want it... They needed someone a military that walk past to confirm if... Yeah. Something suspicious has gone on. Yeah. They want us to know the number ab about, the garden if I makes sense. So... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So time because this was an ongoing operation, they... The normal green army was told, keep up keep out of the aren't doing, you're not allowed in there. The typical British military, when you get told, not to go somewhere. What do you normally do? You come in. So Try walking down there, again, scrappy looking a bit bit like a drug smuggle, I suppose. And unless young trooper from a, the, Cavalry regiment, was was at the front of these poor man patrol coming down there, and I thought, I know. 3 do it there. Now it could have gone pear shaped. So clocks the they they the place where they yeah. 3 let's say, about 20 feet further past is where I met up with the the patrol. Now, thankfully, in our driving licenses, you have a little notes to ain't listen and almost 40, treat me like you would do an armed treat a lot like you would do anyone else. So I managed to get that across to them pretty. And all they did, look perfect, anyone as a young lad, threw me against a wall, sort of pat me down. Obviously felt the the pistol link, webinar and sent me on the way. Now that young like quite easily blown that operation completely. Anyway, so it it continued it fine sent me on the way. They sort shuffle or pass and nothing done. And I met I met the young lad about 3 or 4 days later in Good Barracks. We were front me. Yeah. Yeah. Walked past any anyway, walking out, Like I said, you're brave, and I went not really. I was because that they got a clue Am, but they know who you are. And I said it's you paperwork they're ring you uniform on. You're the easy targets like, you know. So so for us, it's not a thing about bravery, because they they haven't got room. And I've got my pistol, You know, my pistol is my get out of jail card. If any of the happens, but the the british army in them days. I used to Feel sorry for the British army nor on. Because whenever never you just get any intelligence whatsoever, and they were just working targets ready to be taken on, by the rail light, you know? Pretty pretty shocking because all the good intelligence obviously, went to special forces or or or the police or whatever like, you know. And then all all the crappy intelligence that nobody could be alliance with. You pass it on to the to the green army. So the green army were really in the fire line. I was should say, and all that on much much more than, you know, special forces or whatever like... Special ones you get all the all the glory, but because they've got the intelligence to to deal with some. But it's a support all green army that are out their day in day out, you know, trying to find intelligence, trying to find some that that's worthy, but 9 hours was saying the, you know, nothing happens was like, you know, And and every now, and then, but Paula Will get shine deadline you because he's he's in an area. And and that's just a sad side of Northern Ireland I suppose. But but I didn't realize that until I started doing all the under undercover stuff like, you know And you realize that, you know, your... The intelligence that you're actually get and is way more than than what the... What the other people are like you now. But enjoy III I'm much met eye I thoroughly enjoyed undercover type work because because it was different, You know, it was you know, you you you're not relying on other people, you know, because you get yourself in trouble in undercover, unfortunately you need to get yourself out. Bit because otherwise, you'll end up like them to signals lads. And it's quite funny because where them 2 lads got picked up Was Sunshine keller. Was it... Was Anderson tim. Andy Turner. Yeah. It was Andy Town. Literally, a few years later broke down in a deck car in Andy town. And in the vehicle, there was AG3 in the boots. There was a shot gone on the back seat. There's a car pistol in the the door thing. So quite a lot of... Quite a lot of firepower in the if that makes sense. So anyway, because of all the all the gadgets that we've got on the car, yeah. You know, they they'll obama's underneath all that lot. There's a lot of good chance your car gonna go tits up every down. And I actually broke down on and Andy town Road. And so I jumped out, and there's 2 young lads already who who would just... And I said, lads, you, it might tip on right go. If you help me push the car and that they did. And I was just thinking, I kinda I wonder if they actually knew. You you know, what's in this car like, you know? But, you know, but friend is all like, you know? Which which really just sums up, the average Catholic person in in Anderson. Because everyone goes on about, you know, bit feeding frenzy when name to like go. But there was lot of circumstances around that, the that cause that to go off like, you know? Gotta go through it. Let's Can you into it? Yeah. I suppose... I mean, it was 2 lan solution I've been in the area in the in the first place. It was... It was out a bounds area. But but it was 1 lad show in the other hand. Of where you go. I they really unlucky because a lot of the roads have been called often. And because they were driving back to Lisbon, I think which is where they were based. They're just often have an funeral possession. Didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. And it was for 1 of the Ira guy. Yeah. Gibraltar, 1 of those? Oh, it... Yeah. Yeah. So tensions where tensions were quite high if that makes sense. So so because of that, you know, and and then all of a sudden you get this vehicle. But because nobody in the military. So you've got the helicopter video in all this, and and and we've seen the footage and it and it's pretty sick to watch it, You know, watch what these people... Another human being can do to another individual. They they didn't have a clue. So have we got any army units down there? No. So it must be a protestant, you know, thing. So So there was no emergency response to getting in there resort out. It didn't realize it's 2 of our guys. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So if everything can conspired against them them to lu light, you know? But but in a, in a weird way. It it changed our mindset when we operated as a debt that you would never never get yourself in that position. Because before then, you'd actually start shooting people. And the reason being is, you have to... When you're in a situation like that, you have to draw a line in the sun and the first person that's gonna get it is the most aggressive individual because all you need to do is is just remember what these people are gonna do to you, bear in mind that they actually thought they were in the Ses. So there's there's no going down that route like, you know So You make a match? What you I mean? What do you mean they thought they're in the ss? What they... Because they... What of them at a an Na card that... Said Her on there... So they assume. The crowd thought they were. Oh, crap. Yeah. They should... They assume that they'd got to to Sas operators like, you know, which probably causes even more frenzy. So and because they're quite longer share as well. They're on a signal attachment like you know. So everything... Only 264 there? No. No. No. Just normal. Yeah. No normal signals guys. No. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing. I thought they were that. Nope. No. Nope. No. And yeah. It's just... Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of a lot of military units still operates some building clothing without. But there's certain areas that they you shouldn't be in, and that just has to be 1 of them. Mh. But everything went against, them everything. You know, no Units there, so it can't be us. So there's no quick response gonna come in, because, you know, as far as that, I mean, it could have been at an internal tight. Yeah. You know what I mean? So so yeah, everything. But, sadly, you know, and and it... It's 1 of them in instance at yeah, because it was on Tv and and it sort of played out. It's just 1 them incidents instance that you you always look back on and thinking could we have done more, could the helicopter have done. But then you look at the helicopter, and because you only react on the intelligence you're given. And if... Nope. Not military. You know? Because... Because I've no doubt, but all the debts what Have said, that's none of our people. The red, no. No went not down there. Oh, yeah. Mh. Who is it? Last question to round it off me. Service. Yes. I know. Big fat. No. And no. The reason being is there are... There's organizations in the country at the moment that people that want to join the army. They go through an... And and it's taught colleges and stuff like that. So they... You can do a 2 year course, and it's all geared towards joining the military, is pop the money into them because you're... You're getting people, young people that actually want to be in the army. And it's always... It's it's true what to say. You know, 1 voluntary is about than ted Press. So for me, it's a owner, and the reason is, you know, what the military don't have the infrastructure. To fight a war, let alone, train and teach all these these civilians. Yeah. The infrastructure is the problem. The infrastructure is the problem isn't it. Matt really enjoyed it. Well, how can people get older of For? Yeah. So we're on a on... We've got a website that's I'll I'll give you a card after this. So, yeah. And I'll put the website in the blue of this podcast anyway. Yeah. So, yeah. So you get us on there on a on the... We've got our own website. Oh we're we're very heavy into Linkedin, we're quite vocal on Linkedin. Some people like it. Some people don't because we tend to tell the truth. And we tend not to hold back on on, you know, what we you think is right and what's wrong. We're also now on Instagram. There's a lot of bar stuff. There's a guy actually watched after my Instagram account, Someone far more technical than what I am. So he's actually building our our, oh, so the people follow is all that sort on there. So So we doing quite a lot on that. I've got... So, I've got my daughter's locked because I've got 3 lads in the military, And that was the reason we started H and C. You got 3 boys. Yeah. And all of them in the military. 3 military. I know. Bizarre. Got me own my own gun team. But but that that was the thing about when I was in trying to build a legacy. So the idea was to... So when I'm I'm 65 now. So when I'm 75, and Board, and I'm ready to retire, because certainly not yet. I'm still 25 in head. Is to hand it over to my daughter and to the kids hawk and c, and then they've got... You know, if if a at loose end, they can carry on the training. And stuff like that because the the important thing about Hawk and c, it's about helping people, you know, and especially kids being safe on the on the streets and stuff like that. And also farmers and stuff like that. So we're we're we're trying to be slightly to, you know, what other companies do. And that's why I started it because, you know, 24 years, corporate security. I've seen the bad outside of security companies. And It's a horrible industry. I I he's doing a small security company and I worked in the industry for a... Not not 20 years. Written industry of for a few years and I left. And then set up security company of myself and 2 others. And I I like you Got an insight into the way other security company... For me, it was the attitude. Yeah. Attitude on. It is not a It is not a very... An an industry of companies full of integrity or authenticity. Yeah. And are you alluded to earlier. Is all about how much how much they can make at the expense of the customer most of the time. Yeah. Where that's door staff or pump. Yeah. Or whether that's, you know, I don't know. Some Ep stuff in London looking after a family in London. And know, I'm general you, but that is what most of it is like. I know. The problem is that rubs off on the employees and the contracts in the industry. Yeah. It's horrendous. Some horrendous. And it actually puts off people, so going back to the farmer, you you've give an invoice to a farmer. This is how much gonna cost you. They'll look at it, they'll wrap it up and nothing gets done. And what do I start. But if you was to say, listen, It's not gonna cost anything. What, you know, we're gonna help you out here, then they'll improve her security because they know it's not gonna not gonna cost a much more fortune. Security security companies need to understand that. It's not all about making money. It's about helping people. But but that actually brings it enables growth enables, you know, but if you... It puts the industry whichever industry is, It puts it... It gives it a better public reputation. Right? Which brings more business to the fucking. Yeah. Absolutely... You know what Mean? The security industry who run the thing that we did yesterday for all their kid. The finance girl said, Mick, what what are your rates for doing this? I said, the simple fact is how much you paying all the others. Blah blah said we'll get... We'll go that. Who am I to, so, demand this amount of money when you're paying these bills out. So So and that... And that's really how it should be. You know, if you're paying them that amount of money, then then we're happy because we're doing the same job you know, it was 5 different stands or whatever. Not not just quote some ridiculous amount of money because you, you go down there like, you know. So... Yeah. Well, you know, for us for me, it's it's an attitude that I don't wanna go away. Struggling, you know, it's... Because we're competing against the big boys. We are struggling. I can't get a job in the security industry because, you know, probably deemed bit a loose Canon, I suppose or I'd, people don't wanna employ classic 1. I got interviewed for a job and the guy that was interviewing me had been in his job, head of security for 2 years. I've been head up security for 15 years. And he, the the feedback at the end of it was... We we don't think you got enough corporate experience. Really? That's what you got out of the interview. And and it was a pathetic, you know, because he reads a few questions. I he... You know, was picking up and reading it, and without even looking. I like that. That's that's not an interview. You know, you did... This this is an interview. This is how this is how you understand people, not reading up flipping load of lines and And then coming back with that shot that not... You know. And someone sent to me James Johnson. Good friend of mine. He saying, mate, what it is are probably concerned that you're going in there, and then, they'll realize how s they because they're not doing it the right way. So that... That's noise in the back of my head. So... Yeah. No No 1 touch me. Because of your background because of your experience and everything else. Yeah. But through you're do mate. Just put put put yourself in a Yeah. Can you can you can be your own bus show mean? Poll shop yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When's the book. Yeah. So the book... Hopefully, the book will be out by so life on the edge. It's it's gotta go in the military, so that they can they can see the thing. There... There's nothing on there really. That... There's no big secrets. It's all it's a life story to help it help people get self sorted. Hoping to get it out by by March next year so that it's in time for festival all. Perfect. Be a pleasure. Thanks for time. No. Thanks for. Thanks for everybody. Deja. I really enjoy. Any anytime every next time we town to do it again? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Apart my traffic 1. You came in the Central London like car, I. The the thing is about currently least guaranteed. You you can't guarantee on a train anymore. And I live back right out the stick. So I would it would cost fork tuning in taxi drives and. So... Yeah. No. Perfect. But... Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for mate. Which appreciate. No problem. That's it. If you enjoyed this episode, why not become a hair hour patron. Hey hour patrons, get exclusive access to premium content. There are private interviews with previous guests. I'm with this guest, that nobody will see except for a hr patrons. 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