Immigration is very different than it was say even 10 years ago. There's more coming from Asia, China in India, both Central and South America. And then, you know, Africa as well. So it is becoming, you know, more global and than it was... We saw a 65 percent increase, and the number of applications certified of 5 to 4 workers for H28 workers to come and work in the farming communities, And not only that, 2 thirds of the counties in the country, Had employers requesting for H 2 workers. And a lot of times we talk about plants, and and that's important, but, you know, dairy farmers, cattle farmers, spot farmers also have shortages, And dairy farmers especially have a lot of shortages in labor, and we do need to be thinking about programs that can help in their labor shortages as well. It's time for conversations about our food and how it's grown on farm to table talk with your host, Roger Lawson. Well, farm to table means that getting the food from the farm to the table. It we need a lot of help. Sometimes you don't have all the help you need. It labor. And there's so many issues related to labor. There's issues related to certainly immigration they overlap we're gonna cover a lot of this ground today because I I think I... To myself, when I go at this time of the year, and I'm trying to pick up stone fruit. Supermarkets because it's nice and fresh. But how it ended up getting to the store in the first place who was helping getting that product there you you see those things, but you don't pause to think about them. Month today, we're gonna pause to think about them. We're gonna we're gonna talk about that a little bit, And I'm... Happy to welcome. Steve Hubbard. And he's from the American immigration Council that's based in Washington, Dc, but We're gonna find out from Steve. He's not personally living in Washington, Dc in Brooklyn now, but he's in Iowa farm boy too. So What a combination, Steve. Welcome to farm to table talk. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. Boy, it's Steve, We got so many things. I'm looking forward to. Talking about. And and and 1 of them that I'm gonna keep drifting back to a little bit is that, you grew up in farm country in in Iowa and now you're in Brooklyn. That's, they have to really work to think what they have in common of impact. Well, other than the fact, I think there's an appreciation in both cases about about food production and how foods produced and And so you get AAA very, very different perspective between Brooklyn and and the Iowa. So just like I do, different from growing up on a Farm in Illinois here I'm in Sacramento, California right now too. But where I would like to start, Is this organization explaining a little bit more? What what is the American immigration council? So we're in advocacy or... Organization for immigration and immigrants. We work... We have a legal team, Of course that looks at, you know, if issues of legality and immigration, of course, they're very busy right now because immigration is a very important topic in a very important discussion that people are having. We also have a policy center that looks at policy both at the national level, but most importantly at the state and local level. We see a lot of activity, I'm happening at the state and local, you know, looking at immigrant and immigration. And then we have a research, group, which I'm a part of, of course, That looks at immigration, I know wide variety of ways and how immigrants give back to the country. A lot of times we look at economic. Research and how it's important for immigrants in our workforce and our labor workforce, and how they contribute to our our tax revenue. And then also looking at issues at the border and things like that. We we help, our teams solve and look at some of those issues at we, you know, discuss discussion about immigration and helping people understand, what are some of the issues impacting immigration and how important immigrants are to our, society into our communities. You know, there's so many ways to jump into this, but 1 I just have to mention, I think, when we talk about Farm table and we're talk about about agriculture. Farmers need a lot of help. You need people to help. It's certainly, like, the times of the year or too when there are some crops such as. Peaches in Georgia and some other areas that just not enough local help. And so there's programs that I think we can talk about like the h 2 way, and they may have... There may be other acronyms right now. It seems like there... There's always some new acronym to relate to how to how we can get help. And I've talked to farms before that are never thought they would have to be getting help, from other places and they have. And I've just on a a, in a meeting with a conference where somebody who's projecting labor needs and and how we are not gonna have enough people to help really kind of around the world, and they were projecting and not that far into the future. Of how Africa would become a the major source of programs like H 2 and others to bring bring workers over to help harvest some of the crops. Mh. And it's kind of a race on that front because there's also robotics being developed So be keep hoping that they can find ways you can mechanically do some of these things, but it's not here yet. It's it's still coming. And then you've got... So then you've got all the the normal ways that maybe your family certainly mine came in and got off a boat from Europe and stood in line and found a way to get to Iowa, and Illinois and other places. And and then you've got what everybody's focusing on now, crowds coming across the border. At very controversial, it's... You know, and, you know, I don't have to be the 1 to break the news to the listeners it's controversial. But that broad broad spectrum, your organization touches a little bit of all of that, I guess. Yeah. We look at that. You know, we look at a different aspects of immigration, we, for instance, every year do a a report on the Fortune 500. And we look at companies that were started by, immigrants or children of immigrants and we find that usually about 45 percent, of Fortune 500 companies were actually started by immigrants or or children of immigrants. So... There's that ancestry part that we we talk about and then we also talk about, you know, how important both, people who come here on Visas like, you know, temporary visas like h 2, which is specifically for agriculture. And, you know, how that has impact agriculture in the industry, you And then we also talk about, you know, immigrants who are here that are undocumented. And you know, they... Are here, but they still contribute a lot to the economy, and are still important to our labor force. And and so, you know, when we have discussions about immigration. We we wanna make sure people know that, you know, they do contribute to our tax base. They do many come here at working age. So they are working in many ways. And and and many also start their own business, Yeah. So it's different economic aspects that we want to make sure people understand and know about immigrants in the many different ways that they may have come here. I just got back from a trip back to the East Coast went from California to New York and Massachusetts. And and I had, I know, how many Uber rides I had, Mh. Every single driver I had. I mean, even our own airport, was it hear from somewhere else. And you know, it's that's something that's that's kinda heart about that. And that you have that personal experience with it too. It's also a little bit frustrating because some are kind of pushing the envelope to try to get into it and they don't speak English at all. I had 1 of those, and I had to help them quite a bit. And I thought, you know what? I'm I'm glad you're getting this opportunity, but they probably get you a little more help with the language. So there aren't those little rough edges trying to get up to speed. But even around here, I see places that our people can come in and they're learning... They're learning English. They're getting kids to learn English. They're doing... And, you know, it's... So again, it's there's a real positive vibe to to a a lot of that. You know, I live in in Brooklyn, New York, And and we have a lot of immigrants here, of course, just because New york City is a city of immigrants. Sure. And 1 of the things I enjoy is that, the restaurants in the food, Yeah culturally so many different types of the food. And it makes it very interesting to to try different things, everything from, you know, Ethiopian to you know, Lebanese food to... Just, you know, you name it, different types of culture cultures and and the restaurants that are here and you get to try different things. And it does make a a very rich experience And very much, you know, so much, like the rest of the country, you know, there there is that opportunity where in many different cities in many different communities, across the country where they have no great food. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We had... Actually, my wife and I just before Did this podcast. We just came back from a 5 mile walk. To a coffee shop that we found that is in a medical center by a hospital that's a nice nice walk away and and the lady that that runs it her family is from from India, and she has a a recipe for a masala that uses chai. And I get the Chai Latte masala, and she makes it extra spicy for me. And it's been passed down from generations generations and like. Oh, great is, I could walk to someplace and get something like that that has this spicy great story and someone in their family that's that's sharing it. And and you're right, just... You find these discoveries all over. And as they come in, they bring that interesting cuisine and probably a few places have as much variety as you do in Brooklyn. You, that's... I I get it. Mh But but, I guess in in looking at this broad broad picture and all the way that people are coming in to the to the United States. I mean, I can see 1 role for an organization like yours of kind of, like, see how it happens perhaps in your... And what the progress is or what the issues are. But then is there a policy stage where where you identify things that need to be? Improve or changed or made stricter or looser or something like that that you're able to proposed regulations or talk to members of Congress about changing laws to be able to affect that flow into the country. Yeah. So we do have a policy team, and and I'm part of the research team. So I don't talk a lot about policy because I let my policy folks to talk about policy, but certainly, they are often talking with legislators both and we think of that nationally, and we certainly we were part of that conversation, and and we do and we provide data and discuss and and look at different aspects of of policy and how that can impact immigration. But a lot also happens at the state and local level you know, I think at the national level, we're sort of frozen in discussion. And and I think we see more so discussions at the state and local level about, you know, where are places where they need workers, and how can immigrants you know, help in in supplying those workers? You know, I know places in Iowa, where they need workers, You know, They they have industry and they're just saying, you know, we just don't have the number of workers here. And how can we attract and and bring people to be a part of that, I'd be part of the the community. And and so I think, you know, we see that the state and local level, and we try to option help, you know, at the state and local level provide data. You know, we use a lot of information what's... Called the American Community survey. It's run by the Us census. They run it every year. And we give them statistics about, you know, what their community makeup looks like and what, you know, who what their workforce looks like and things like that. And so we try to help in that conversation and try to, help at the local level and state level and then, of course, at the national level as well. You know, when we talk about these sorts of things. Some people look at the news of how many are coming across the border, and that's obviously controversial it was because... There's a stage where, some people say, well, we do need people, but we don't need that many or we we want them to come the right way, and they're they may be getting subsidize. There's all these issues related to it. But there's also 1 central issue that comes up often to places like these areas you were talking about in iowa. It's kinda like, well, wait a minute then. There probably be some of these people who can come up and take these jobs that nobody else are taking. Out are are are you able to kind of objectively observe those kind of facts? And and so the people can say, well, yeah know, maybe that's true, You know, why aren't if we've got so many more people than, some think we can we can absorb here in this country. Why aren't they making it in to the to the parts of the of this they they can't get people to work in the pan plant or can't get people to go to the the peach orchard. Mh. Yeah. You know, I don't know I have a lot of of, specifics on on how that can be done, but I will say there are programs that we talk about with, like, the H2A, temporary Visa program, where and these are 4 farm workers to come in and say, when we looked at the data to say, hey, we need workers to be here and to work in our fields to harvest the field, you know, to crop. And and and we tend to look in... That's 1 of the reasons why we did this recent... Report on the H 2, is to look at the demand? And where is that at? And and why is that and why you know, what what can we do to help try to improve the H 2 program and looking at the data. And, you know, like I said, I try to help get people the data and to try to show things and try to tell the story with that data. And then have people have a discussion and to say, okay, look at. You know, there's parts of the Southern California and Southern Arizona that, you know, really grew Texas really grew in demand for H 2, You know, Southern Florida. I and and then also in in parts of Western Michigan, there orchard there that were... Seem to have increase in demand for H 2 workers. And so if it gives us a little bit of understanding, when we work with local communities to say, it you know, there's been demand for workers to come here. 1 of the things about the report, that I've been talking about is we looked at demand at at this report. And it it doesn't really necessarily they actually come here because there's so much but it's such a long process. Sure. To get temporary workers here. You first have to go through the Department of labor. Which is where my data comes from is from the Department of labor. But it also has to be approved by United States, you know, customs and immigration services, and even, you know, at the embassy level, approving workers to come through. So there's a very long process to kinda get people through to come here to work. And what we wanted to show the demand first, how it get an understanding of where us workers are needed across the country. Was that the principal goal of this of this research? The principal goal is yes to show the location, but also to show the demand the of the... What was the demand. And so, we we looked at 5 years from, we compared 20 17 to 20 22, and we saw a 65 percent increase. And the number of applications for, you know, for certified of... To for workers for inch 2 8 workers to come and work in the farm farming communities. And not only that just that number. So, you know, in 20 17, it was about 225000, and then it increased about 370000. And that's quite a jump. But also, we looked at where in the country and if you look at... You know, when you look at 20 17 to 20 23... 20 22, we're now, open, employers in 2 thirds of the counties in the United States have requested H 2 workers. And so it didn't even, you know, necessarily grow. It grew 35 percent from the number of counties from 20 17 to 20 22. Which was a big demand, just not in the numbers, but also geographically. Blocked and increased. Yeah. Well, and 2 thirds of the counties in the in in the country? Yes. 2 thirds of the counties in the country, had employers requesting for H 2 workers? Wow That's that's... That is that is a a lot. So I mean, we get that number to start with as it, statewide or county, labor departments or government agencies. Where people were people filing and and questions? Is that the original source of this? So, no. The source of the data is actually employers who fill it up, you know, fill out Okay. Application. Now there's we're finding about 44 percent of those applications come from farm labor contractors. So. Right. And so these are contractors that help farmers, find labor, and they, you know, will help use the H 2 program and fill out the applications to help farmers find from I'm fine labor. But it could also be an individual farmer or, you know, a corporate, what have you? So what are some of the theories that that that it's growing so much? That that there's been such an increase in demand for, you know, for this kind of help. Well, part of it, I think, we're finding... That probably there's less... That that that we find less, so we've always had a lot of a large immigration, immigrant, crop production workers. And I think what we're finding is that, fewer younger, immigrant, farm workers are going into, you know, going into farming, going into crop production. And I know this crossed in the Us born population as well that is less Younger people, but it's really very high in the in the immigration population. So we looked at the average age of the immigrant population, and it rose from 37.2 in 2006. Was the average age of the immigrant crop production worker, and now it is 41 point... It's 41.6 or nearly 42 years of old. So it's like a 5 and a half year difference in at in an average. I work with statistics a lot, and that's a very significant bump. And in your average age. And so we're finding that the immigrant farm workers is becoming much more, you know, is is much older And so that is, I think we're we're finding that a lot of immigrants are not going so much into. The labor force and they're needing more H 2 workers to come in. More workers from this standpoint. Okay. So it's gonna fill in... It's kind of filling a gap. Yeah. So just the sheer numbers of immigration doesn't necessarily mean that you're covering all the ground of things that are some of the basic agricultural skills and and and so forth too. And and a lot of that work I would gather is not necessarily 12 month work either, I mean, it's very seasonal I would suspect suspect. It is very seasonal. I will say, the 1 of the things we do notice, so a sort of a... Weakness of the H hoa program is that they are limited in the number of months that they can work. And I believe it's either the 9 or 10 months. I don't know exactly what the number is. But there there is an argument to say, could we could, you know, H hoa workers work at a longer, you know, period? For the farmer because there are times after the crop is, you know, produced they need help also with managing the farm or prepare for the next season and and and things like that. So... And it kinda depends on what crop you're producing as well in many ways. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. We're offering that. And another answer to your question is that we see a lot... The increases that we've seen all across the different industries within agriculture. But 1 of the largest areas has been in the fruit and vegetable area. Along that southern border along, you know, Southern California, Arizona, and in Texas and in Florida, has seen a lot of that increase. But in other parts of of the country have seen increases as well. Yeah. That's really interesting. You know, the other thing, I I think I've heard before that immigration from Mexico has actually been down for several years. Yeah. And so, so along that border, and and couple reasons, but for people that are Mexican Mexican citizens. There's more to do there. Yeah. And and so they don't need to come... So what seems to be a distortion. And when people are looking at the immigration, a lot coming across the border aren't from Mexico. They're walking right through Mexico. Because they've... And they're coming from different places around the world and they're coming in through the border of there, But it's not really Mexicans. And and and that's where You know, when you say that, I could see, well, maybe we've got dependent for people that were coming across and doing Some work going back across the border back and forth a little bit. But there's no reason to do that now because you've got all these plants and factories that are assembling and it's and it's might even be more of that coming on because... Because now when we're sourcing closer to the states, if we're not in the states instead of having a long boat from China to come here. They can put them together in Mexico and just, you know, come across the the border would finished goods. So there's lots of job up to lots of job opportunities there for people that are citizens of Mexico. Yes. That's right. The... There was a recent article in the Washington post about that that... You know, Mexico has, you know, has their own agriculture industry, and, yeah. Looking for workers, and they have labor shortages just like we do. And and so they have a lot of of they're trying to pull people in as well. And so they're you know, they're probably is less need. And we do see there has been a decrease. It's... You know, Mexico is still... We we still see people, I integrating from mix Mexico that that does happen, but it's not as much as what we normally have seen in the past. It it has been, you, slightly decreasing. And then we've also seen and we've done another study where some, you know, Mexican immigrants have gone back to Mexico, you know? Yeah So. Sure. And yeah. We... Immigration is very different. Than it was say even 10 years ago. You know, you're right. There's more coming from Asia, China in India, that is, you know, you know, 2 countries that have increased in immigration, as well as Central and South America. And then, you know, Africa as well. So it is becoming a little, you know, more global and than it was, say 10:15 years ago. Well, on the demographics when you start looking at? Size of the families and the and areas of the world that aren't even replacing their own population and it's their population the gonna be declining 1 area that doesn't seem to be having Mad is Africa. And so when you start looking ahead the next 15, 20 years as we're gonna young people are that can work. That's gonna be that's gonna be different. But... Mainly, that's that's that's intriguing. So that explains part of that increased demand in 2. How do they come up with these... Tricky names, like H2A, you know, I don't, you know, government acronyms, there must be a school they go to and say, look, we're up to the letter h now. And So what does... What does it stand for? You know, I do not know what H 2 stands for I'm working. I will say that, you know, I'm doing report now and H2B0, of, course. Of course, that how do they come up with that? These... They genius. You, I don't know history of it. Workers are are a lot of times they're more in landscaping. They're seasonal usually tied not always, but tied to you know, to... Tourism to other places that need workers temporarily, I did a really interesting report for the state of Colorado where, you know, they have h 2 workers because they have farm workers that they need. For the mini crops that Colorado produces. And then and then I a different map for the H 2. And the H 2 we're kind out around the edges of the mountains, and then the H2B, were weren't, you know, we're coming in for the Ski resorts. And so the Rocky Mountains, they... That's where they were, you know, going into. So it's really interesting to do that comparison in the state between. Are you saying d as in dog or b as in boy. B as in boy, H2B0, of course. Of course. I mean, I was jumping away I had. I'm looking looking down the road. I'm ready to do research and project that there is a d in the future. But, must they, I don't know 1, but there could be. I know, I think we should make a requirement that, you know, you should have certain amount of marketers that have branding experience So... And the and the bureaucracy. So they don't have to just go through all the letters and numbers. But still, it's it's it's intriguing, and and Back to the back to the H2A, you, I've talked to somebody that I had a guest, actually his name is Blake Hurst and Missouri. He used to be the president of the Missouri Farm bureau. And he's got a greenhouse and his family as a corn soybeans in Missouri. And they just couldn't get help anymore. And it's a lot of it was coming to head around the time of the pandemic. And so I think the wind was at high point there. And then they just get people back, and they had like had for years, they could get people that that, well, this is good as part time work. They could work in the greenhouse, and he just needed a couple. And He got so desperate. He couldn't get anybody to come out and work, and he... So he started exploring the 2. And if I think, now, correct me. But once he kinda went through all the paperwork and so forth and what he was going to need, I think it involved, like, you know, plane ticket, commitment to make arrangements for housing, must be some sort of income provisions and so forth. And So it it was a little more than he was used to to doing, but he finally ended up getting 2 people from I don't remember what country, And and and they were very nice. I mean, their language had some issues, but they kinda of figure out a way to communicate. And and but I do think too. It was a... It was only, like, 9 months and they had to go home, at least for a while, and they might be able to get them back another year. This... Now fill the blanks. That was a pretty sketchy description, but it but I remember his experience that it... He never thought he would be doing this, you know, as a small farm in Missouri. And then he he needed to and his experience is mostly positive. But, you know, I had some challenges in learning how to do it. Mh. Yeah. III have a similar... Sort of story about with my father, who I mentioned to earlier, that he's a a country bat, a country veterinarian and sort in in Iowa, and he talks about several farmers he knows that needed help in, you know, different areas, 1 I think was in hog hog production and that they have used h 2 workers. And and I do think that's increasing more so more farmers are looking at the option of using the H hoa program. To get workers that they need. Mh. But it's a it's a learning curve. I mean, when I was when I was a a young boy. We've got enough bigger in our farm. We were gonna need everybody head that was bigger at a certain size. You had a hired man. Now on Hindsight, and it could have been an higher any gender, but it was always, you know, a higher men, and you had you had a house and a and a beef and and access to a pickup truck and and and so forth. Because you just couldn't do it with your own family members. You needed a little... Extra help. And so they could live in a in a place down the road, and and we had but then pretty soon, everybody that would do that kind of job could go get a job caterpillar instead. And so you started drifting a field and we weren't really in back in the corn belt then looking at labor contractors per s, but you were looking to the fringe of the corn belt. So there were people that you could you'd somehow make a contacting in Kentucky or that would move up and and work until they heard about the factory and then they left too. So Yeah. Then we started making really great big tractors. Yes. Changed farming me a lot. That is... Yeah. Yeah. No. That's it's a... And and the the 1 thing that technology not come to the rescue or some of these people get though is that... That some of the harvesting technology. They still haven't got robots down that do a great job of picking and strawberries or peaches. Yeah. And and so there were some things like that. They've even... They might try to apply the technology to can. So it's an it's an interesting process. That we're that we're going through. As you do the research, you've identified... Are there any other trends that you're you you sense that is is going to be feeding our attitudes and our our our our long range plans, I mean, if you're looking at where you're going with needs and and the ability for somebody to look at it and say, the way we're headed, We're gonna need more and more and more of this. And the, does it give you a feel for where we are now, but where we're headed, Well, 1 of the things I think is concerning is... And 1 the reasons why I I... We did this report was to look at the average age. You know, that that... The immigrant crop production worker is increasing. And we did a a map, a table looking at temperature, the And, of course, you know I mentioned a lot of workers are working in Southern California, Southern, Arizona. Great. Now, these are very hot regions, and we're, of course, getting hotter in many ways. So, you know, so we've been told. And we do need to think about that about heat and our you know, crop production workers and things like that. Now, many times, when I talk about these, you know, Southern Californian and other places, They are not working at the heat of the highest part of the summer. Usually, it's more in the spring and things like that, But there are certainly heat considerations to think about. With these labor forces, you know, especially as they're getting older. So it's something I think is the kind of a warning sign to be thinking about going forward in both our labor supply, but also protection of our workers and to be thinking about. So that that that is 1 trend that I'm seeing. I I don't see... I I do still think there's gonna be still increases in H 2 in the... In the temporary farm worker visas. I think we're gonna be seeing more employers looking and relying on those visas. And that they're gonna play an important part in agriculture, and so that, you know, it's gonna be something that we're gonna be thinking about of, as far as a policy side, how can we improve the program? You know, like I said, maybe possibly looking at increasing the number of months, that's available for H 2 to stay here, and also, there are caps. Sometimes that they... That they place and they're increasing those caps and the number of workers. H2A is you know, we do have farm labor shortages. So, you know, that that is important to be thinking about. And a lot of times we talk about plants, and and that's important, but, you know, dairy farmers, cattle farmers, spot farmers also have shortages, and dairy farmers especially. Have a lot of shortages in labor, and we do need to be thinking about programs that can help in their labor shortages as well. Well, who decides what's the limit? Well, that's usually it's usually by law. It's usually a a government. And and this gets a little bit on policy side. So III kinda... But the policy time probably I would have to answer that. But it is a, you know, there's federal... Caps that are put in, they can increase them. Sometimes that can be done by the administration, and when they look at, you know, the the demand of that. We have in discussion in some of these areas, especially about labor demand, even discussed and, you know, it's never... That we're saying this is a way to go, but add to the discussion, could there be more local, you know, discussion and talk about labor and for instance, governors having a little bit more say, And like H 2 and things like that that they need, and being involving that more at the local level than just at the national law. Can there be a quota or a limits? Per state, I mean, could could Colorado say I need a lot more sheep herd and you all say we got enough. And so the you know, that they're able to have some effect on the the availability in that state I... Currently, I don't think that's currently the case, but, that is something that could be possible that could be part of the discussion. You know, that might be an idea that could work. I I don't know exactly. Then some of that, if they look in particular, I will say that, as I mentioned, the department of labor first reviews the application to make sure that it's not taking away jobs from their, you know, workers, Us born workers. That's the first step of the process. And they usually highly, you know, certify workers to come here. That's, you, you know, 98, 97 percent of those that requested get, you know, certified. It's a pretty high. And then also, the Us Cis, also is a pretty high. Approval rate to get... To come here as well. So when they come to a state, did... Are they regulated by the state's labor laws such? As minimum wage and overtime and things like that, which vary by state. Yeah. That that can impact their wage, it can impact, you know, there are student state regulations that do need to be followed, as well as h 2 regulations that need to be followed as well. That we've had a pretty high, comparatively high minimum wage in California. Mh. And and then some of these jobs 1 of I'm familiar with is like, sheep herd. There are still sheep herd, which people, you know, they're they're going up into the mountains with, a band of 2000 sheep, a horse tent and, a dog in a Winchester, and you're kind of, on the clock really or around the clock. You know, you're... And so there's trying to adjust some of those things, and this is made even an extreme example. But that's where they just had to kinda go out and, you know, live in that environment to be able to to move the herd or sheep along. And then they... Or I think they're getting many from Peru now. I for some reason, but it kind of varies where they can... Where they can find find labor to bring them in. Yeah. I... And I I'll have to admit. I don't know exactly how state law impacts like, their pay. We we have seen an increase in pay, if we, you know, a compared, you know, similar dollars from 20 17 to 20 22, we did see mostly that the paid did increase, which tells us that there is still, you know, there's quite a demand as well. That's another way that we looked at demand was both as a number geography and then also pay. And and most places, you know, increased and pay from so. Now are labor contractors themselves? Are they regulated? I... Yes. There there certainly are, certain regulations that are put in there. The biden administration has... I, you know, I shouldn't say... Specifically for the farm labor contractors, and assume there are, you know, regulations that are are are placed in there, but also the employer you know, there are certain regulations, of course, that they have. The biden administration has, you worked with you know, increased some of the regulations for farm employers, and and for, you know, making sure that farm workers do have rights when they do come here and and and looking at that. Well, because, obviously, I mean, they're... If they're concerned about a certain income they got, and then there's a certain fee that has be paid by somebody. And and I do understand a role for labor contractors because again, people haven't done that much, and if they have to get quite a few people lined up. I can see where they could... There's a a service there to be rendered. But then somebody has to be responsible for these minimum standards whether to be sure that, housing, transportation, I'm not... Quite sure exactly how the food food works, but access to be able to, you know, these kinds of things they're taking place. And so there's There's... Again, it gets back to a fair amount of structure and an organization. It's it it's a... If a fascinating area, and it's it's it's an it's an important area. So when you look at this whole broad area, get yourself, and you're involved in the science and the research department. What are some of the questions you have, you'd like to see answer down the road. I mean, if you get to... You put together a you know, a wish list of view the research you look for questions you'd like to see answered and do you think that or could be useful, as as we move forward with immigration you know, indefinitely being an important part of of of the Us seen and important to Us food industry. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if I were to kinda in particular the, you know, farm workers I would have to say, you know, the big question I have is how can we improve the H 2 program? To both benefit the worker who's coming here and then also the employer, and how how best to do that and have that discussion. Mh. III think that's also just an immigration in general, how can we get beyond where we are today a sort of a... A political back and forth and not making much progress? How can we have a discussion both about where we want the country to go and what's happening, but also to make sure that we, you know, have a labor force that's here and that's important and that that provides what we need in our country. You know, there's there's different areas. We talk about agriculture and their shortages, but so many things are going in, you know, Ai and in chip manufacturing. Where we just don't have the workers for that as well that we need to have workers, help us, you know, with those industries, and, things in construction. There's areas where we need more workers as well across the country. In different places. So it's it's a discussion that happens happens that has to happen locally, but also within industry and it's just different levels. And how do we have those discussions that are productive and and not getting into, you know, politics up 1 side versus the other of how we... Where we want to go as a country and what we want as far as economic development and growth to go forward and what we want to accomplish. Did did you you grow up anywhere near Storm lake Iowa. I did. Yes. So why the guy... That's a guy's name that publishes the paper there. It's a great movie. I cannot remember his name. I've seen a of times. I've... Read the book and I've talked to him before. Yeah. It's been a it's been a few years. It was 1 of those stories of a community too. Hey that at first, I think the community was feeling somewhat threatened because they, you know, meat processing plant and they needed help, and they... You know, brought bus loads of immigrants in, and that was back before. We knew all those stories about them. And at first blush, the community had a real hard time with it. And then it just evolves, you know, they kind of... They become a manager miniature Brooklyn in Western Iowa. Yeah and and and appreciate the you know, the the foods and and they're getting everybody's getting used to each other, you know, and there's just so many things to acc, but there's some stories like that, but it just kinda evolves. You get... Yeah. It's it it's got it's it's got its rough spots, and then I keep... Wishing that might be what we're facing now is that this is those rough spots we get to to to work out. So good for you for being kind of on that front. And and looking at at what's what's going on. I love my job because it's different every day. New to look at something else to learn, and yeah I gotta I I gotta ask you the 1 more thing about for the food chain is concerned. What about the back of house? In restaurants. Mh. Are they able to utilize H 2 as well? Restaurants... No. This is... I I believe, I I have never seen working in restaurants or anything like that. There there is the H2B, which I mentioned, can be... I think there can be restaurant workers. Like I said, the are more seasonal temporary workers, mostly in areas that require seasonal workers say, like, in the ski resorts, those or in now, like, Maine. I'm doing this report. Know a lot of people, Immigrants go up to Maine in Massachusetts, up Northeast because people going up. You know, to the beach beaches there or in Florida, or different places at different points of the year. And so that... That's can be places where H2B temporary workers work. Wow. We're gonna have to have you back on when this comes to H2C, and b e and f. And and just kind of I'm I'm kinda with you. You went all the way to Ski resorts as the restaurant thing can reminds me. I used to go to this place. It was a great have way us ring charles that I could get for breakfast, and I love really good way those ring charles, Yeah. And it turned out that the the cook was, probably didn't can't came over and in a in a process that wasn't exactly approved. And and so they came in and took back and sending back to Mexico And I kept coming in and getting Away those rent Charles. And 1 day they were really great again, and I asked him. I said, did Jesus come back and they said, Yeah. He's back. That's great. That's a good. No. I could tell this because, okay, the good Way boss are back. And and we gotta get in a lot. Smoother with these with these things. But I I appreciate you're telling the telling these stories and And I think it's it's a good reminder to us. Of all the needs that we have, and you know, you... Just when you feel like maybe it there's been enough discussion in the world about immigration, but not at the certain level. It's we're probably in... On all fronts here a little bit knee jerk on some of it. But I'm I'm mean, Impressed there are processes and that there there's needs and that and I'm glad that you're looking at it and you're sharing with us. And I wanna thank you for being on farm to table talking. And if people would like to see more about your organization or are or this report that you've just done, how can I find it? So, it's on our website. It's it's all 1 word, American Immigration Council and then dot org. So 0RG. And okay. And then you should be able to find it there. And yeah, we are... Like I said, we're doing this 1 and we'll do another map on h to, and we're very excited about... And we're gonna be update. We're gonna we're gonna try to update it every year. Yeah. So you look at the timeline and what's happening because it is something that we do wanna be keeping track of because it's demand increasingly we wanna find out what we can help. It both local communities and farmers know about this demand and and what we can tell legislators and how to improve the program? Well, on If you've got something that you think those of us that are paying attention tower foods grown and consumed and distributed and the role labor plays come back, and you don't even have to wait. For H2BBEFGHI. And, well, anytime. So Steve Albert, thanks for being on farm but table talk Yes. Thank you. It's great to be here. You've been listening to farm to table talk with your host, Roger Watson.