Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston, and I'm joined today by my colleague, Matin Durrani. Hi, Matin. Hello, Hamish. How are you doing? Yeah. I'm not too bad and I'm getting very excited because, of course, next week, the Nobel Prize in Physics is going to be awarded. And so, the in this podcast, we're gonna have a little chat about the Nobel Prize. We're gonna put through some predictions, which, of course, we will get completely wrong. And, we'll also talk about Nobel Prize winners that we've met in the past. But first, this episode is brought to you by SmartAct. Elevating high precision positioning, metrology and automation to empower your breakthroughs. Shape the future with technologies. So, Matin, first, I thought we'd, we'd go through some of our predictions for, next week's Nobel Prize. And and shall I start off? Well, I mean, you've over the last few years, we've got this amazing infographic that, contains a list of all down the one side, it's the list of subject areas that the prize has been awarded to. And it's a graphic that kind of maps, year by year, different areas. So you've been, looking at that for quite a few years, and it seems like there's one field that is ripe for being awarded this year. Yeah. That's right. I mean, listeners, this is a bit of numerology. Basically, you know, I sort of look at the numbers, and I try to decide, the gaps in years between Nobel Prizes being awarded in specific fields. And according to my, chart, which, you can see, on the Physics World website, there seems to be about a 5 year gap on average between different disciplines. So you remember, Matin, that last year, we managed to predict 2 out of 3 winners by focusing on those gaps. There hadn't been a winner in atomic, molecular, and optical physics since 2018. So we predicted that Paul Corkum, Ferenc Krauss, and Anne Flouillier would win for their work involving ultra short laser pulses. And sure enough, we were right. Well, sort of right. Krauss and Louwelier were the winners in 2023. And unfortunately, fellow Canadian, Paul Corkum, was passed over. Now this year, I'm focusing on the 7 year gap since the last prize was given for condensed matter physics. And I think that this field might just be the award winning one this year. But before we talk about some potential condensed matter winners, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it might be 2 years in a row for atomic, molecular, and optical physics. So my first prediction is that Lina Howe of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology is going to win this year's Nobel Prize for her work on slow light. This is a a trick, well, it's not really a trick, it's physics, Where you can fire light into a gas, an atomic gas. And you can slow it right down. And then you you make a change to that gas. And you can speed it up again. So it's almost like you can store light in a gas. And, you know, that's an amazing thing. And I think there's some amazing physics in that. So Lina Hao, that's my first pick. Because she's she's been on quite a few of these prediction lists. I mean, I'm looking back even 10 years ago, she was on lists, particularly as a, you know, an outstanding female researcher and one person who should win. But, yeah, she's on the list been on the list for quite a while. It wouldn't surprise me, but, over the years, Hamish, I've I've nothing surprises me about who wins the prize. It's quite hard to predict, isn't it? You know, some are nailed so it's only rarely is it a nailed uncertainty. And I think the Higgs boson was the 1 year in 2013 that you were pretty sure that was the one that was gonna win it. We almost got it right last year. We picked 2 out of the 3 winners. But, yeah, it is very difficult. And and so, condensed matter, that's my my next field that I think might be in for, for a Nobel Prize. And and this one is is a slight cheat. I mean, I think both of these physicists are, strictly speaking, are condensed matter physicists. But they tend to work in the field of optics. And those are, John Pendry of Imperial College London and Federico Capasso of Harvard University in the US. Now John Pendry, is a pioneer of the mathematics that describe how metamaterials manipulate light and other electromagnetic radiation. And, you know, he's come up with some some great ideas, like, for an invisibility cloak, manipulating light so that something disappears. And, you know, people sort of pooh poohed that when he first came out with the idea. But, you know, these have been built, particularly, operating from microwaves. So he was a mathematical pioneer in that field. And Federico Capasso has actually built lots of metamaterials that do some amazing things with light. You know, for example, making flat lenses, which are really, really useful for modern technology such as mobile phones. Because, of course, you want you want a really high quality optical system in a mobile phone. And normally, that requires a certain thickness. But Capaso and his team have come up with ways of making very, very thin lenses using metamaterials. And they're actually commercializing it as well. So, yeah, I think, Capaso and Pendry double bill is another one. So what about Umatine? Have you, who who do you think might win this year? Well, I think Capaso and Pendry is a very good shout, Hamish. I mean, they've been on our list for quite a while. And I I know Capaso is still doing amazing work. We we see papers that he's still, publishing. You know, I'm not quite sure how old he is, but he's, you know, very, very active still. So that's a good shout. The other topic that we thought Hamish that was quite likely might win is, you know, this whole area of twisted Oh, yeah. That's a good one for condensed matter as well. So that is condensed matter. So that's the idea. You have these very thin carbon sheets, but you you have 2 layers, but they're misaligned in terms of their molecular structure by a certain angle. And, that was one of our breakthroughs of the year. And I think was it 2018? You basically got this new platform for exploring all sorts of exciting condensed matter physics. And the person who led that work was also MIT, and that's, Pablo Gerilo Herrero. Hope I've got his name right, who has sort of stacked these sheets together and done a lot of the great work in that area. So that's, if that wins, that's quite unusual because that's quite recent work. And it's not always that the Nobel Prize goes to work that's done in the last couple of years, but you never know that could be in with a shout. But I know from, your chats that you've had with the people who award the prizes, you know, we know that they do it very rigorously, and often prizes get nominated, numerous times. And I think that plays a a role in which prizes get awarded. And sometimes, you know, people like Peter Higgs had to wait sort of 50 years before, his prize from the work he originally did. So that might be in with a shout, perhaps less of a shout because it's quite recent only because of that. But certainly twisted Graphene is, yeah, one area to keep an eye on. Well, that's enough about the future, Hamish. Over the years, me and you and the rest of the physics world team have met all sorts of Nobel Prize winning physicists. So you've got a story up your sleeve about about Bert Brockhouse. Do you wanna remind people who Bert Brockhouse was? He's a Canadian, wasn't he? Yeah. That's right. So so Bert Brockhouse, I think was the first Nobel Laureate that I ever met, and this was years before I joined Physics World. And, you know, in in the run up to every Nobel Prize, actually, I think I I think back to that day. It was in 1994. And, I had just woken up in Hamilton, Ontario, which is sort of a, an industrial city, just outside of Toronto. And the CBC News came on. And the announcement was that Bert Brakhos had just won the Nobel Prize for Physics. And at the time, I was doing a PhD at McMaster University. And Brakhos was a professor emeritus at McMaster. And so there was an instant connection. And I was very excited because, you know, I was I was about to go into the physics department. And I knew that, you know, that there would be joyous mayhem when I got there. But I also had a bit of a a bit more of a personal connection, I would say. Because a few years earlier, I had spent some time, at the Chalk River, laboratories, sort of a national laboratory in Canada in the neutron is it the neutron physics branch or the neutron science branch? I can't quite remember the name. But that branch was founded by Bert Brockhouse. And he won the, 1994 Nobel Prize for his work on, inelastic neutron scattering. So he was a pioneer in using neutrons to study the dynamics of solid materials, essentially bouncing neutrons off atoms and working out their vibrational modes. That's what, that's what Brakhos did. And that was a fantastic day. Yet, I remember going into the university, and the physics department. And just as I came in, Jules Carbot, who is, unfortunately, he's since passed away, but a theoretical physicist who studied superconductivity came skipping down the hall. And, as I passed him, he punched the air And he said, Bert Brackhaus, son of a gun. And this this is my this is my memory of walking into the physics department. And people were really, really happy about it. Brackhaus was the first, Nobel Prize winner associated with McMaster University in Amatine. You've been to the University of Bristol and Cambridge, which, you know, has no no shortage of of Nobel laureates. But this was the first McMaster, Nobel laureate. So everybody was very happy. And there were endless celebrations. And, it was very nice. I remember meeting Brockhouse and discovering that he lived in this in one of my favorite areas of Hamilton, this sort of semi rural neighborhood, on the Niagara Escarpment. So he had a chat about that. And, yeah, it was a it was a lovely it was a really lovely day. And so every October, I think back to that day. And, you know, I've got some nice thoughts about that. So, yeah, that's, I I've written, something about that for the for the website. So I'll have a look at that. So what about you, Matin? You've had, some encounters with Nobel Prize winners as well. Well, I had an incident a bit like yours. It was early 9 I think 91, actually, when I was at the, Cavendish Laboratory, which was the department of physics at Cambridge. And the work I was involved in was in soft matter physics. And that was the year when Pierre Gilles de Jean, the the, Frenchman, won the Nobel Prize that year. And I remember, you know, there was great, celebration. He wasn't at the Cavendish Laboratory, but the Cavendish had a real expertise in soft matter physics. And there was a real delight that this field of physics that perhaps had gone under the radar was being recognized by the award of a prize. And I remember that year, you know, de Gein had done a lot of work with Sam Edwards at Cambridge, and he didn't win the prize that year. But there was no hard feelings. It was just a feeling that really, glad that that field had been recognized by the Nobel committee. But I think, actually, correct me if I'm wrong, Hamish, I think that was the last time that only one person won the Nobel Prize for Physics Oh, it could be. Yeah. Now it's very much routinely shared with people. And, you know, that was, you know, an unusual time, because it just went to him. And that that's very much it's 2 or 3 people share it routinely. Normally, it is. Yeah. It's funny. You've just you've mentioned Degen, and a memory of Degen has come back into my mind. And it was at McMaster, when I was doing my p h PhD at McMaster. DeJenne was, invited, to the university to speak. And he gave a seminar for undergraduate students. This was after he'd won the Nobel Prize, so he was very famous. And he gave a a seminar for undergraduate students. But he was so desperate for a cigarette. And back in those days, you know, McMaster was a was a you couldn't smoke inside in 91 at McMaster University. And so the the seminar was held outside. It was a beautiful day. And, it was held outside under a tree. And there was DeJene standing there smoking a cigarette with Really? Undergraduates gathered. He was a very heavy smoker. Gathered around him. Yeah. So it's yeah. I, yeah. That that one's just popped. That one's just popped into my head. Yeah. I mean, it's funny, you know, thinking about, you know, we're I think we're so privileged, if I can say that, at Physics World that we do get to meet these people. And, another Nobel Prize winner that I I really enjoyed meeting and interviewing is Frank Wilczak, the American, theoretical physicist who won for his work, on the strong force. But the the the interesting thing about that encounter is that, I interviewed him at, the March meeting, of the American Physical Society. And it was an anniversary. I think it was in some important anniversary of the, discovery of high temperature superconductivity. And so we talked about superconductivity. And that's what Frank Wilczek was really interested in at the time. You know, he had, he'd done his work on the strong force. And now he was talking about superconductivity and how the mathematics of superconductivity can be used to understand other, aspects of physics. And, you know, he's he's done some great work on time crystals, hasn't he? Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, Hamish. I think it was actually the 2011 meeting, which was the centenary of the discovery of superconductivity. But obviously Okay. That included, but not to include high temperature work as well. It it was actually it was 2011, Mateen. Yeah. You're right. And but but the thing is, I I was really chuffed, with Frank, if I can call him that. Because 4 years later, I was at the Royal Society in London. And I was there for a meeting about, Maxwell and Maxwell's equations. And, it we you know, in the coffee break, we were everybody there was looking at the portraits. I don't know if you've ever been to the Royal Society. It's full of portraits of all the famous, you know, fellows down the down the ages. So, you know, you've got Benjamin Franklin and Faraday and, you know, all these people. And, there's there's one portrait that had a sort of a saucy caption with with some innuendo. And, you know, I remember sort of chuckling, about it with Frank Wilczek. And he looked at me. And he said, oh, I know you. We've met somewhere, haven't we? So you actually knew a Nobel laureate knew you, actually. A Nobel laureate actually knew me. Yes. So that's, yeah. Another claim to fame with, with Nobel laureate. Well, I can do one better than that, Hamish. Because actually, when I was at the, Cavendish Laboratory in the early nineties, I did my PhD then. I actually went on to do a post doc. And one of the people in the department was Brian Josephson, who is, you know, famously won the Nobel Prize in 1973. He was very young, 33. In fact, he won it for work on, you know, superconductivity and quantum tunneling that he'd done much earlier when he was in early twenties. And when I was there in the department, he was just a regular member of staff. And I think he was assigned to me to do a kind of, like a sort of what do you call it? I'm not like a management, check-in, like a as a as a check-in with the staff, how they were doing, which just didn't seem comfortably to him at all. I don't think he was he wasn't the sort of person who did, you know, annual appraisals or that kind of thing. But I remember sitting in a room with Brian Jodson. I'm not quite sure he knew who he knew I was. And in fact, I used to when I lived in Cambridge, I lived in a part of Cambridge called Newnham, which was a really nice part on the southeast of the city. And, every twice a week, I think, once, twice a week, there used to be this fish and chip van would roll up. And I remember I used to go for a run, and I'd have this 5 pound note in my hand. And afterwards, I'd queue up to get cod and chips, whatever it was. And one of the people always in the queue was Brian Josephson. And I don't think people knew who he was because he was quite a sort of distinctive character. He had this curly black hair, glasses. He had his cycle helmet on and his trousers with bicycle clips. And he'd be standing there. And I don't think anybody knew who he was and I I I knew him, from the department. So there was a very ordinary, scene with this eminent Nobel Prize winning physicist going around, in in that department. And over the years, you know, he's, he's I I dare to say, can I call him a friend of physics world? He's very sort of helpful on various matters if he and he certainly reads Physics World. And, unfortunately, Margaret Carrias, our colleague, is not here, but she, received a couple of or an email from him about the physics of how to turn a mattress. And I can't remember the details of it, but certainly, it sounds we have to get Margaret on the podcast another time for her to explain that story about Brian Joseph and send you an email about, you know, the physics of the symmetry of turning a mattress, how to do it in the most efficient way, and how to do it, you know, quickly as quickly as possible. So, yeah. I've actually had a appraisal from Brian Josephson. How about that? Wow. Claims of fame. Can't beat that. Yeah. I've I mean, I have worked with with Nobel laureates. I I went to the Lindau meeting once. I think you've been to the Lindau meeting several times. That's a meeting on a beautiful lake in Germany where, Nobel Prize winners are invited, and they speak to, well, young people, I suppose, from all over the world. And I was very fortunate 1 year to, be asked to organize a seminar where, the panelists were Nobel Prize, winners. And I chose I chose to look at immigration and Nobel Prize winners because and I believe we have an infographic on Physics World to back this up. A huge number of of Nobel Laureates in Physics were immigrants either before or after they, won their prizes. You know, you you you've got people who fled Nazi Germany, for example, who are Nobel Prize winners or then won Nobel Prizes. Or, you know, you have people who who moved to different countries and did their Nobel Prize winning, work as an immigrant. And so it was a very timely topic at the time. I think it was around Brexit. Yeah. The time of the time of Brexit, in the UK where immigration was a very hot topic. And I really I really enjoyed that. I mean, there were you can read about it on the Physics World website. I think I had 4 Nobel Prize winners. I had absolutely no problem getting people to talk about this. You know, I think a few of the the Nobel Prize winners who took part were actually immigrants themselves. People were very keen to talk about it. So that was a very rewarding experience. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember there was one Nobel, Linzhou event. I think it was, a session chaired by our former colleague, Matthew Chalmers, who currently was, until recently, the editor of Sir and Courier. And I know he, did a similar panel debate. And I remember watching it. I think either when I was there or I watched it online, and it was certainly really difficult for him because the panel had some Nobel laureates on it, and they're they're kind of a law unto themselves. And it was I found it I don't know if you have this experience, Hamish. I think Matthew found it very hard to keep those laureates on track. Some of them were just sort of talking on stage while this panel debate was going to go on because I think they felt maybe if you're a Nobel Laureate, you're kind of above the law where you can kind of do what you like. You're maybe sort of used to, you know, having everything your own way. And I I remember thinking it must have been a very difficult job for him to keep them on track and keep them sort of respectful of the rules of the panel debate. But, you know, certainly that Nobel laureate Nobel Prize meeting in Lindau is very unusual. It's kind of like a I'm trying to analogy, I suppose it's a bit like a Woodstock for Nobel laureate. Like a music festival. And the reason everyone is there is to see these eminent artists, and the artists are the Nobel laureates. And, they're kind of wandering around with sort of, you know, students of, dare I say, falling students sort of attracted to them. And I and I had an experience myself, Hamish, which, I've told you the story several times where I'd arranged to I was there in it was 2010, and I'd arranged to talk to Robert Laughlin who won the 1998 Nobel Prize for Physics for his condensed matter work. And he had a new book out about the future of energy and coal, and I was there and I'd arranged to have a talk to him in a in a private room to do an interview. And after about 20 minutes, all was going quite well, but then, someone barged in. 1 of the conference officials barged in. You know, there'd been an overbooking and, you know, we were turfed out. And the fact that I was with a Nobel Laureate didn't sort of make any difference. We had to reconvene. So this interview kind of got cut short and then we reconvened on the terrace because, as you remember, Hamish, it's on the lovely banks of the Lake Constance, and it's beautiful with lakes and the mountains in the distance, and, it's a lovely setting. And so we reconvene on this outside table. But like I said before, this whole event, the Nobel laureates, everyone knows who they are. And before I knew what was going on, kinda one student had joined with us, and then there was another student, and then a third and a fourth. And before I knew what was going on, this one to one interview that was meant to be in private had just turned into a kind of press conference where Robert Loughlin was holding court with all these students, and they the whole thing was rather awkward, and I ended up sort of sidling into the background while he held forth, held court with all these students. You know, he was in his element. And, you know, they get invited to this meeting, and they're really the stars of the show. And that that of course, they are. And, the students obviously want to sort of brush up with this genius and sort of actually feel see 1 in the flesh. And it's it's quite an unusual experience because the Nobel laureates really are celebrities. And I don't know. Your life really must get turned upside down when you you win one of these prizes. It's quite an incredible thing. It's the one one feat that, you know, you can win in physics that really does transform your life. Yeah. Well, what what's it? It's called Nobelitis, isn't it? Where, you know, you a laureate sort of gets swept away by the fame and, maybe starts commenting on on areas of of life and society and science that they they don't really know much about. I mean, I have to say, I have never met, a Nobel laureate who suffered from noblitis. All of them were very grounded and lovely people to chat to and very unassuming. So I think I think noblitis is probably a fairly rare affliction. So, well, I I mean, I I could go on forever about Nobel Prize winners that, that I've met and interviewed. But what what about you, Matin? Any, would you would you like to take the last slot of the podcast? Well, I suppose the most difficult one that I had to do was Steven Weinberg. I remember it was 2003, and I've been invited to CERN to, see how plans were developing for the the Large Hadron Collider, which was then being built. And I think Steven Weinberg was there, been invited to give a talk. And in the break in the schedule, he'd arranged to talk to me as a member of the press. And so we met in a hotel lobby in Geneva and started doing this interview. And, you know, he was very lovely person, as you say, Nobel laureates. But honestly, I felt so so out of my depth, you know, out of all the people you might meet, this was a theorist who, you know, sort of several orders of magnitude more intelligent, you know, and it was an incredible job to sort of reign him in. He was very charming and kind, but it was sort of it's a very sort of asymmetric process when you interview Nobel laureate because they they know so much and and and you feel even your questions that you ask aren't even sensible. You know, it's just very odd because they know so much, and and it's and it can be quite, it's quite difficult because you're, a, you're trying to sort of keep abreast of what they're telling you in real time. They're deluging deluging you with information that, you know, they've been thinking about for 50 years. And then you're trying to sort of think up your next question, without looking too stupid. And, sadly, the Dictaphone that I recorded the meeting on, we didn't have sort of mobile devices as we do now, digital devices, an old fashioned analog tape. I'm not quite sure where it is, and we kinda lost it in one of our many moves of physics world over the years. But the only thing I can remember, Hamish, was that, you know, he we were sitting there and suddenly, he broke off midstream and sort of led forward onto the table in front of us. And there was a bowl of peanuts and started eating these peanuts. And then he started asking me whether I like peanuts, and it was really odd. The only thing I can remember is, isn't it stupid? Are all these things he was telling me? The only thing I can remember is, do you like nuts is what he said to me. And in my family at home, it's kind of this catchphrase. Do you like nuts has become sort of gone down in history. And isn't it silly? Like, of all the things that he told me, the only thing I can remember is Steven Weinberg asking whether I like peanuts. But, you know, he was, you know, obviously, very talented person and, you know, fully deserving of the prize. And, you know, so let's see who wins this year. I'm sure whoever it is Hamish, their lives will be turned upside down and be, you know, transformed. And even in 2018, when Donna Strickland, the Canadian your Canadian compatriot won the Nobel Prize Who who, is a graduate of McMaster University on the website and the 2nd Nobel Laureate associated? It. Absolutely lovely person. And and I know her life has been sort of transformed, and you kind of need a whole entourage of people to sort of run your schedule because you're suddenly in demand. So let's see who win wins the prize this year. Remind me what were your suggestions again. You think Capaso and Henry, Lena Howe? Henry, Lena Howe. And I went for twisted Graphene. So, let's see who wins next week. Yeah. I mean, I really hope it's somebody that we know, you know, a friend of physics world. Wouldn't that be great if, you know, somebody we know wins? But we have absolutely no insight into who's going to win next week. So, may the best physicist win. Well, as we always say, you know, it takes 50 years before the archives are opened up. And so we will have to wait until 2074, which I don't think would be around then, Hamish, to find out the reasons why the prize was awarded this year. They're very careful not to sort of release details until that 50 year rule has passed. So but we will certainly find out on Tuesday, 8th October I believe so. 2024 at 10:45 UK time. UK time. And let's hope there's not an embarrassing thing like there was with the chemistry prize last year where, Oh, was it leaked? It was leaked, wasn't it? That that was a first, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting. But, yeah, stay tuned to Physics World, on 8th October. We'll have, we'll have an article out within minutes. That's our, tradition. So you can find out out all about the Nobel Laureate or Laureate, for 2024 at Physics World. Okay. Thanks, Matin. Thanks, Hamish. I'm afraid that's all the time we have for this week's podcast. Thanks again to Matin and also to Fred Iles, our producer. This episode was supported by SmartAct, empowering breakthroughs in science and technology with high precision positioning, metrology, and automation solutions. Visit smartact.com to learn more.