- We're just about to
start the episode, but before we do, we wanna talk
about the other wonderful ethical people in the dog nutrition space that help us bring this
show to you. Who are they? - Our first sponsor is Big Dog Pet - Foods we can never forget Big Dog. They - Are absolutely amazing. They're an Australian company that have been manufacturing raw pet foods for over 20 years now. They only use human grade ingredients. They don't add in anything synthetic or artificial into their foods. Their meals are nutritionally
complete and balanced. You can let your vets know
that. Mm-Hmm. . They offer a really wide variety of different protein sources
across their Patty range. If you've got a fussy dog or a dog with a particular
health condition, you'll be able to find something suitable. I highly recommend that
everyone visit their website. Big Dog Pet foods.com.
Mm-Hmm. . Check out their resource center. It's full of articles, guides, frequently asked questions
all around raw food, feeding, natural diets, general health, and just nutrition overall
for both cats and dogs. Like their Facebook page,
like their Instagram pages, big dog, pet foods definitely sign up to their newsletter every month. They have these amazing
giveaways and monthly prizes. Subscribe to that for your
chance to win. Mm-Hmm. . And also
tune into their podcast called Pause and Listen. Yeah. They do some really great interviews with industry leaders and other animal experts in their field. Our other sponsor is Ballen Bone. They are also an Australian company and they make a range of
dental sticks, collagen sticks, superfood treats, and freeze dried treats. And unlike many dental
sticks on the market, the Ballen Bone Dental
and collagen sticks. They actually have real meat
as the number one ingredient, which is generally not the case. People might be surprised to learn. - And we just gave one each to our dogs while we were
recording this episode so they can enjoy themselves outside without making too much noise. - Lots of ways to use the Bell
and Bone Dental sticks. Yes. . So the dental sticks. The great thing is a
contain active ingredients that have been proven to not
only freshen your dog's breath, but to fight plaque and tartar. Mm-Hmm. So you can find the Bell and Bone Dental sticks online or in store at your favorite
pet store Australia wide. Yes. So the website, bell andone.com au. And as an ongoing special
for listeners of our show, you can get 20% off the Bell and Bone products using
the coupon code Ladybug - Ladybug,
- All one word Ladybug. - So generous of them to give 20% off and use Ladybug in the same sentence. Yep. - Win-win.
- Welcome to the Natural Health for People in Pets podcast. A show that aims to empower
you with the knowledge and tools needed to take
control of your own health and wellbeing, as well as providing health promoting strategies for the dogs in your life. The world of health and
nutrition can be overwhelming. So what better way to
understand what works and what doesn't, what's evidence-based and what's not, than to hear
it from someone in the know. So please welcome your host of the show, accredited naturopath and
nutritionist Narelle Cook. - Welcome back to Natural
Health for People on Pets. I'm co-host of the show, Glen Cook. And after a long hiatus, I'm gonna introduce the host
of the show. Noelle Cook. - Hello everyone. Oh my goodness. I don't know where time goes. - I do on canine Ceuticals. . - Yeah, it does.
- I'm a widower. A work widower. A work widower to canine ceuticals these days. Unfortunately, - That is the reality of
running a small business and growing a business. Yeah. - That's becoming successful. But all - Good. Here we are for another episode. - And you've been doing
like your Thursday thoughts and all that on your Instagram
and your social media. - If you're not following
me on social media, it's canine Ceuticals
on Insta and Facebook. But the New Year's resolution was to try and have a greater
presence on social media. So I am trying to put my anxiety aside and every week do a Thursday's thoughts because I come across so
much interest in scientific information that I think is so relevant for the average pet parent
is to share that information. - That's good. I think
people really appreciate it. 'cause they get to have a little bit of an insight on what's
happening there. So - The funny thing is
the topic that I picked for this podcast, I did so because I had anticipated
releasing it in December. What we're gonna talk about
today is milk thistle, which is a herb, and the
botanical name of which is Syl. Mariana. Mm-Hmm. ,
traditionally milk thistles being used to treat, you know,
range of liver disorders, you know, gallbladder disorders,
things like hepatitis, fatty liver disease, cirrhosis, but you know, lots of
stuff around the liver. So I thought, ah, perfect
for the lead up to Christmas, like in December, everyone's
having a bit more to drink. Yes, I would educate them about
the benefits of milk thistle for liver health, but I missed that one. - It's still January.
People are still on holidays and they're still recovering . Well, Australia day's coming up. - Yeah. So if you've had a
big December with drinking and eating and you're still
celebrating with friends and families over the holidays, then this will be a really
relevant podcast for you. - Absolutely. - So milk thistle
is one of the common names of Syl, Mariana, and it's probably one of
the most common names used, but there are lots of other ones. So it's often referred to as Mary's thistle sent Mary's thistle. Oh my goodness. This is not
good for my Lis . So many - Thistles, ,
- Holy thistle. Our ladies thistle.
There's actually a legend. So a lot of those common
names come from a legend that there's white veins
on the leaves of the plant. And the legend is that those
white veins were caused by a drop of breast milk
from Mary, the mother of Jesus when she was nursing him. So that's why you get like the St. Mary's thistle and the Holy Thistle. - Ah.
- So yeah, bit of a interesting, fun fact. - Isn't a funny old folklore
where people don't really care to look it up or bother about it. But now that you've explained that, that's something that I didn't know. Yeah. Once again, I'm
educated on this show. - Yes. So whenever I research a podcast, I always have in my mind, I've gotta keep them short and sweet. But I think I've failed again today, so I'll try and just get to it. . Okay. Jumping straight into how milk thistle works in the body to have all these amazing, like
liver protective properties and sort of general
health promoting benefits, which we'll go into in a little bit. Firstly, it acts as an antioxidant. That means it can inhibit free radicals that come about from the
metabolism of toxic substances. So things like alcohol paracetamol, or for those in the US acetaminophen. So anything that comes into the body, body gets processed by the liver. But these toxic substances
are particularly damaging in terms of free radical damage. So milk thistle can stop that. It can actually protect
the cell membranes from that free radical induced damage. And it can increase the
activity of enzymes, which play a really important role in the defense system of our cells. So things like glutathione,
which many people may know, is a master antioxidant in the body. In addition to antioxidant properties, it has anti-inflammatory properties, and that's due to its ability to regulate compounds called cytokines, which are responsible for triggering inflammation in the body. It's been shown to downregulate and inhibit the expression of Cox two. So that's COX two. And that is also a major mediator of inflammation in the
body in that regard. Many people may be familiar
with the drug Celebrex. So it's a type of non-steroidal
anti-inflammatory drug that acts as a COX two inhibitor and that's how it's working to
reduce pain and inflammation. But how interesting that milk
thistle is also working on the same Cox two inhibition that these common prescription medications are doing. Mm-Hmm. You're not gonna
get the same potency, but it's still having
benefit in that regard. Milk thistle also shows promise as an antifibrotic agent in this regard, it can indirectly prevent the deposition of collagen fibers in the liver. And that's what leads to the
progression of liver injury. So if you think about cirrhosis
of the liver, that scarring of the liver, that's
through the deposition of all these collagen cross fibers. So milk thistle, again, it's
early days in the research, but there's evidence to
show that it can prevent that scarring from happening
to the same degree, which can slow down the development of cirrhosis of the liver. There's evidence to show the
milk thistle stimulates the process by which cells make proteins, and this is where its role
comes into play for repairing and replacing cell tissue,
particularly damage liver tissue. So that's really awesome. But probably my favorite
benefit in terms of the action of milk thistle in the body
is its anti-toxin effects. So milk thistle has the ability
to regulate the permeability of the cell membrane, but even more importantly, it can inhibit toxins
in viruses from binding to the cells in like in the case of viruses entering the
cell and multiplying, or in the case of toxins
entering the cell and killing it. So whenever I read research
around that antitoxin effect, I always get this visual, it's
not scientifically accurate of course, but so I imagine
like a little soldier going around the outside of the
cell, and then whenever a virus or a toxin approaches, he takes up arms and sort of protects the
cell , sorry, that's - Just those little analogies or even those visuals help people who don't have a scientific background and don't understand
the science behind it. So sometimes it's simplifying. It is helpful to your audience. - Yeah. And whenever I
think about free radicals and free radical damage, I
always think of little pacmen going around the body. Yep. Like Mno nomine and
damaging cells and tissues. So keep that one in mind. Okay. - Pacmen and soldiers. Yep. Got it. - Like a really good
example of milk thistles, anti-toxin effect is in
relation to poisonous mushrooms. So many people may know of
the death cap mushroom Mm-Hmm. . And that
it produces a toxin that is deadly if you ingest it and you're not treated quickly. But they did a review of
hundreds of documented cases of death cap mushroom poisoning, and they found that the overall mortality or the death in patients treated with milk thistle was less
than 10% in comparison to more than 20% if patients were only treated with penicillin. For example. Additional
case studies have shown that if milk thistle is given
within 48 hours of poisoning, only mild to moderate
liver injury is observed. But if it goes for more
than 48 hours untreated with milk thistle, severe liver damage, coagulation disorders, coma
and death are likely to occur. But the really sad thing is
they've actually tested this on dogs now that wouldn't get past
any ethics communities these days, but back in 1978 and 1984, they gave a number
of beagles, a decent amount of death cap mushroom, and then they had a treatment
group that got milk thistle. They had a control group that didn't, and the milk thistle was actually given intravenously in these studies. But the first study showed
that all of the liver enzymes of dogs that received milk
thistle remain nearly normal throughout the test period. The dogs in the control group
that didn't get milk thistle, they had significantly
elevated liver enzymes. And then in the second study, four of the 12 dogs in the control group died. Mm-Hmm. . And
then the histopathology showed like severe liver necrosis. So that's like death of the liver tissue. Whereas none of the dogs died
in the milk thistle group and their liver histopathology
was nearly normal. So that's pretty phenomenal,
just for a herb to, to have such a protective
effect against such a powerful toxic agent. - There you go. In essence, you've got a herb versus a fungi. That's why I refer to people
when people say that herbs and fungi and so forth, you
know, like it's all woo woo mm. You've got a tiny little
mushroom that can take your life. Mm. And you've got another
one, well many that can enhance and save your life and have
referred people to those contrasts before because it's incredible. And I know I've embarked on this before, but it still makes me laugh
when people say herbal medicine is woo well . There's so much evidence
to support that it's not. And just in my limited understanding, those two examples really showcase how people have got it so wrong sometimes. - Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing with herbal medicine, yes, the research is definitely increasing, but there's not a lot of
people willing to fund it. A lot of the research. So
people need to keep in mind, no evidence doesn't equate
to negative evidence. Right. Yeah. When it comes to herbs, we do base it a lot on traditional use, but it's great to see that
the evidence is increasing. So if you've got a dog that likes to run around eating random
things off the ground, including potentially
mushrooms, I know I worry about that in the yards around our house. I know we don't have
death cat mushrooms, but, or any probably poisonous mushrooms, but I still see mushrooms
and just get paranoid and pick them all out. Well, - They're not mushrooms that we see. Sometimes they're toad stalls, so Oh yeah. After rains and humid weather,
we tend to get, you know, because we live in a
semi-rural sort of area, and it does have that moist,
supportive environment for growing mushrooms at a times. But yeah, after good rains and
a little bit of humidity here and there, I often go out in the fields and I spot fungi of some
capacity that have popped up. And I often do the same thing. I pluck them out just in case. Mm. You know, we've got a board
and train dog that runs along and hoovers them up like a greeted Labrador or something like that. - Yeah. So if you do have a dog that does Hoover things off the ground, or you know, you live in an
area where there are mushrooms that may not be good for you or your dog, keep a bottle of
milk thistle in the cupboard. - What about for dogs that scoff chocolate and so forth like that? Would it help against that
toxicity from chocolates? Good - Question. I'm not sure I've got
a feeling it would be a different mechanism of action. Yep. Of the, the bromine
in what it's doing to the dog versus like a toxin
triano attached to a cell. Mm-Hmm. . But yeah, now I'm gonna have to look into that. Yeah. So look, they're the main ways by which milk this will works in the body. And as I mentioned at the
beginning, the main uses and what most of the studies revolve around are it's benefits in
various liver diseases like toxic liver damage, chronic liver disease, alcoholic liver disease,
non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, viral hepatitis infection,
and liver cancer. But there are lots of
other areas of health that milk thistle can help us. It's just that the
research isn't as robust. But that's not to say again,
you know, if you pull from that sort of traditional use
side of things, then it's not to say there isn't any science
behind these other conditions that I'm gonna touch on now, but just putting that out there. Mm-Hmm. so good for reducing cholesterol levels in anyone with hypercholesterolemia. And the way it does this is by reducing cholesterol
synthesis in the liver as well as increasing the rate of cholesterol conversion to other compounds. And people don't realize
that, let's say all of our sex hormones, estrogen,
progesterone, testosterone, our steroid hormones, you
know, things like cortisol, they all come from cholesterol,
like it's the beginning compound and they all are
derivatives of cholesterol. Right. So having too little cholesterol is also not a good thing. - So once again, it's the Goldilock syndrome just right. Yep. - But by reducing cholesterol, obviously that can help in the prevention of various cardiovascular diseases. It can help prevent gallstones by, again, by reducing cholesterol levels in the bile and by increasing the
fluidity of the bile. So, you know, bile gets
released by the gallbladder. We want it to be nice and
loose and fluid and not sludgy and causing blockages and forming stones. Mm-Hmm. .
So it can help with that. And because it does stimulate
the production of bile, this also helps with
digestion, particularly fats and breaking down fats, but also absorbing the
fat soluble vitamins, which are A, D, E, and K. So we cannot absorb fat soluble
vitamins if we don't have enough bile in the body. Bile is essential for
removing toxins from the body via the feces. So again, if you don't have enough bile, toxins won't be pulled outta
the body in a timely fashion. So you can get a buildup
of toxins in the body. So if you know someone, or
if you experience symptoms of fat intolerance like nausea, headaches, if you're chronically
constipated, you know, these can all be related
back to poor liver function and poor bile production. In addition to milk thistle,
there are other herbs that can sort of stimulate bile as well, but we won't go into those today. Mm-Hmm. milk
thistle has been shown to be great for protecting
the liver from exposure to the drugs used in chemotherapy. The preliminary research shows
that combining milk thistle with the chemotherapy drug
cisplatin can reduce the toxic effects of that drug and
enhance the anti-tumor activity. That's pretty awesome. And
there's evidence it can protect against drug and
stress-induced gastric ulcers. Something that I'm sure
no one thinks about, but because it's a really potent antioxidant and people forget that sperm and eggs, if you're trying
to get pregnant, the sperm and the eggs are really
vulnerable to oxidative damage. So milk, this will can
actually help promote fertility by reducing the oxidative stress that can negatively impact sperm and egg development and health. Just wanna put a little note
in here if you are planning to get pregnant, anything
new, introduce it well before you start trying. Yeah. So ideally speak to a professional for preconception support. - So this really is a
people and pets episode. - It is, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
I'm jumping back and forth. I will get into the dog stuff
a bit more deeply shortly. I just really wanted to
cover the broad range of health conditions that
milk thistle can touch on. - It's actually good if we
have a symbiotic relationship between the two, because you
can have it in the cupboard and use it for yourself, and you can have it in the cupboard and use of your dog. - Absolutely.
- Unless it's indicated for dogs only . - Yeah. But really fascinating. There's research to show that
it also has a neuroprotective role in conditions such as
Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, epilepsy, ms. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole of how it's helping in those conditions, but there was this recent
review paper highlighting that it does help in those conditions. It's been shown to have a role in psychiatric disorders as well. Things like anxiety and depression. And part of the way it's working there is to restore certain levels of
neurotransmitters in the brain, but more interestingly is by reducing inflammation in the brain. Mm. So we know now that inflammation and psychiatric disorders
are closely tied together. And remember that movie Brain
On Fire? Did you ever watch - That? No, I didn't. Oh, - It's a few years ago now, but it - Oh, was that the one where
they had to use the clock to get it back? Yes. Yes. I have seen it. And it was only one doctor
that figured out what it was. He showed her a clock face or
something like that and yeah, - They thought she was psychotic. Yep. But they, yeah, this one doctor figured out
she just had a certain disease that caused like severe
inflammation of the brain. Mm-Hmm. - Spoiler alert. . Sorry, . - Oh, it's an old movie. Hopefully everyone's seen it by now. - Well, if you haven't,
it's a good movie anyway. - Yes. Some of the compounds
in milk thistle have been shown to work in a similar way
to diabetic medications, and in that sense can help
improve insulin sensitivity and decrease blood sugar. Yep. An interesting thing
about milk thistle, again, that many people may not
realize is that it can chelate or bind to iron and decrease iron excess. So not good if you're anemic, but awesome if you suffer
from hemochromatosis. So that's an iron overload condition. Like it's a genetic condition because excess iron causes a lot of oxidative stress in the body,
and particularly in the liver. So what the liver does when
there's too much iron in the body, so think of too much
iron in the body, oxidizing and literally causing
internal rust, so to speak. So to protect the organs and the tissues of the body, the liver actually pulls
any excess iron into itself and stores it there, which
is great for the rest of the body, but eventually
will lead to cirrhosis of the liver and all the
consequences of that. So can help with iron excess. But if you're anemic,
you'd wanna be careful. Milk thistles been shown
to stabilize Mars cells. And I think I've definitely
spoken about Mars cells in past episodes with the PEA in
particularly so that can help with allergic conditions by having an antihistamine
effect in the body. And just the last sort of
additional health benefit that I'll touch on today, 'cause there are lots more,
is that it's being shown to protect against kidney
damage due to drugs and toxins. Particularly things like cyclosporine and the chemotherapy drug cisplatin. But they're suggesting
now that milk thistle for kidney health might
be just as important as it's role in liver health. Wow. I just found that
really interesting because it - Is very interesting. - We are very liver centric. Yep. When it comes to milk thistle.
Mm-Hmm. . But as the research evolves, so does our understanding of its benefits. Right. So I guess why would you give milk thistle to your dog? Because like I said, a lot
of those conditions I've just mentioned are human relevant
more so than dog relevant. But we have to remember, you know, whether we're talking
about humans or dogs, our livers are performing just hundreds and hundreds of like vital functions. 24 7 mm-Hmm. Like it, it doesn't stop. It helps it, the digestion of food, it helps break down food,
it helps in the creation of nutrients, it regulates blood sugar, it regulates amino acid
levels, blood cotting stores, vitamins and minerals. But one of the main roles I
wanna focus on today in relation to dogs is that because it's
filtering the blood in the body and removing toxins, well, not just toxins and metabolic byproducts,
you've got bacteria and other harmful substances. We need to always remember
the greater exposure that our dogs get to environmental
toxins compared to us. - Mm-Hmm.
considering they're omnivores and they forage and pick
up things off the ground and they eat things that
they probably shouldn't eat and et cetera, et cetera. - Yeah. I mean, it is the
fact that they are close to the ground and
actually wrote a blog post about this very topic. But to quickly summarize the key points, the environmental working group, which is in the states from memory, they actually tested the blood and urine of pet dogs and cats. And they found that they
were contaminated with dozens of industrial chemicals with 43 chemicals at
levels higher than those typically found in people. Every time I think of
that, it blows my mind because you think of a five kilo cat or a 15 kilo dog having a
greater chemical body burden than a 70 or 80 kilo human being. It's just scary. And you know,
the most prevalent chemicals that they found in our pets
are from the Teflon family. So think of non-stick
pans, plastic softeners, stain proofing chemicals, fire
retardants, new furniture. It's got stain sealant
stuff and fire retardants. And a lot of the plastic toys and bowls that our dogs
are using are gonna have toxic chemicals in those. If you've painted your
house, you know, toxic fumes and chemicals and it just goes on and on. And because they're close to the ground and they do things stick to their fair and then they lick their fairer. So they're ingesting
all of these chemicals. But from the study, and I'll
just highlight the dog results, 35 chemicals were identified in dogs. 11 were known carcinogens. So we know the rates of cancer are just skyrocketing
in our dogs these days. 31, were toxic to the reproductive system. And 24 were neurotoxins
thinking about the reproductive system, I get a lot of allergy dogs and they seem to be getting younger and younger with more severe symptoms. And I always think, what happened to that puppy when it was still in the mum? What was the mother exposed to
that changed the epigenetics of that puppy to make them so susceptible at such a young
age to environmental toxins and compromised immune function. I'm, I'm not saying that's causing it, but it makes you stop and think. Of course it does. And with
the 24 being neurotoxins, I know there's a million factors that can influence dog behavior, but potentially this is
one piece of the puzzle. The fact that our dogs are
exposed to so many chemicals that are impacting their neurology and their brain health
and their brain function - Well, you'd have to expect some form of mutation to occur from it. Yeah. - I just think going forward, the evidence is just gonna reveal so much interesting information
around the connection. - It's a common thing that
I've spoken of in some of my other experiences, being
that I'm in my fifties now and I recall going to school and knowing that one person who had an allergy was an
outlier to everybody else. Mm-Hmm. There was one asthmatic at school and there was one person
that had some form of allergy that was a complete outlier to every other student in the school. Like it was an anomaly. Those people are kind of focused on like, what's wrong with you? Why do you have this thing
fast forward 50 years later, it's a common denominator. Mm. Like there are children
everywhere across the world that if they even sniff a peanut, they're literally going into anaphylaxis. Those concerns are the mutations
that must have occurred through chemicals and
exposures and food groups and processing and all
those sort of things. So it's no wonder that we
see mutations in behavior and mutations in physicality because there are things
that are in our environment that are mutating our genes. Yeah. - It's just crazy, isn't it? It's um, how it's
shifted so significantly. - I've seen the evolution of it. Like I said, there are people that maybe are 20 years old now or maybe a little older that look at it and go, that doesn't sound right. But they haven't lived those
extra 20, 30 years that I have. They haven't seen what I've seen. And it's not to say that
it wasn't more abundant in different areas, it's just that
I didn't see it growing up. And I changed schools a
lot when I was younger. We were shifting around quite a fair bit. So, you know, I was probably
in school for three, four years at a time before I was shifting to a new location. And every time I shifted
the same process, kids who had allergies or asthmas,
it just wasn't prevalent. It wasn't so known in comparison
to what it is these days. I guess that's the point
I'm trying to make. - Yeah. I mean, banning
certain food groups from lunchboxes just wasn't a thing. No, back in the day. Like
it just would've been what - We only really sort of
ate mostly fresh foods. I mean we still had cheel and twisties and all those sort of things, but most of the time it
was sandwiches and um, - But we could have peanut
butter on our sandwich - And you could have peanut
butter on your good point. You could have peanut
butter. Peanut butter wasn't restricted from school. In fact, there were peanut butter sandwiches sold in the cafeteria. - Yeah. All right, we'll
better move off then. Yeah. - We better
- the allergy rant. So in addition to toxins
from the environment, other factors can contribute to poor liver health in our dogs. I mean genetics, some
dogs are just predisposed, certain breeds are predisposed infections can trigger liver issues in our dogs. Mm-Hmm. regular
prescription medications. We're giving our dogs a lot
of chemicals on a monthly or three monthly basis. So all of that can impact. So all of that's in my
mind reason that we need to support our dogs liver
health liver function. And that's where milk thistle can come in and play a significant role. So if we jump into the
dog specific studies, well firstly there's
a veterinary textbook. It's called the Veterinary
Herbal Medicine textbook. And it's like a bible of
herbal medicine for animals. Mm-Hmm. . So it
states a number of indications for the use of milk thistle in animals. So they say hepatitis
toxic injury to the liver, especially AFL toxicosis. Now that's really
interesting that they mention that specifically because a lot of, - What's that? What is that? - It's a mycotoxin. So
it comes from fungi. When you see grain that's
contaminated with mold Mm-Hmm. that's created mycotoxins and aflatoxins are a type of mycotoxins and aflo tosis is poisoning due to aflatoxins. - I think that's what
happened in Salem when the rye got Maori. It created almost an LSD effect and that's where they were seeing demons and accusing people of
witches and so forth. Interesting story. Look,
look into it. . So - I hope I explained that correctly. Lib. But what's interesting is a lot of kibble have been tested for this contamination like
mycotoxin contamination. And in some studies like a hundred percent of kibble test positive for some level of mycotoxin contamination and aflatoxins are actually
hugely carcinogenic. Like they're so detrimental
to health. It's not funny. That's one of the benefits that the textbook mentions fatty liver. This is really interesting as an adjunct for giardia treatment, but
not to treat the giardia, but to decrease the adverse
effects of the drug that's used to treat the Giardia. Mm-hmm. . And
also for the protection of the pancreas during pancreatitis. So I know a lot of dog owners have dogs with chronic pancreatitis. So milk thistle would be a lovely safe edition in those instances. Right. But just touching
on that Giardia study, it was done in 2005, and I won't go through
like the methodology, but what was interesting is that side effects were not observed. So with milk thistle, the main constituent that's extracted is
called silly marin ands. Marin is made up of multiple sub compounds and then those sub compounds are made up of additional sub compounds. So it's quite complicated the
chemistry of milk thistle. But in this study they
used a smarin extract and the drug was, hope I pronounce this
correctly, metronidazole. The dogs that got the milk
thistle with the drug, if they didn't get the milk thistle, they experienced poor appetite,
they experienced vomiting and they reduced body weight. But if they were given the
milk thistle with the drug, they didn't experience
any of those side effects. The dogs that didn't get
the milk thistle also had increased liver enzymes. That was just really interesting
about its veterinary use to protect against the veterinary drug. Mm-Hmm. , other
studies have been done more recently in 2021 just
looking at the effects of milk thistle on healthy dogs and then dogs with liver disease. And they found that
supplementing with milk thistle, it didn't interfere
with nutrient digestion. It didn't have any detrimental
effect on liver function or any blood parameters. But in dogs with liver disease
it decreased their liver enzymes and improved
liver function overall. So that's good to know that
basically there's no adverse effects to its use. I won't go into the studies.
Basically they're all saying the dog studies, they're
all saying milk thistle can decrease liver enzymes in the case of elevated liver enzymes. But something that, you know, I often get asked is about dosing. But it's so tricky because
it really does depend on the individual dog or the person and why you're wanting it, whether you wanna use it preventatively or there's an actual disease diagnosis that you're trying to target. But in the human health space,
the typical dose of sylimarin ranges from let's say 400
to 600 milligrams per day. But studies have gone much lower than that and much higher than that. If you are giving or taking milk thistle, ideally it's best taken in divided doses. So let's say someone, a human
was taking 600 milligrams per day, you might do that twice
a day or three times a day. Mm-Hmm. The research does state
that higher doses are needed for more serious liver disease and for more chronic conditions that it must be taken
over an extended period for maximum efficacy. So that's really interesting because I see a lot of comments online and I get a lot of emails to canine ceuticals from pet owners who are using milk thistle with their dogs and they've read online that uh, it shouldn't be given every day long term. But I cannot find a strong
reference to actually support that line of thinking. - That's interesting. I was
about to ask you, is there any negative downside to milk thistle? - The studies are saying the sick of your liver is the longer
you need to use it every day. The human research actually
goes up to 41 months of daily use. Like that's the longest study
that I've seen referenced. So what's that three and
a half years? Something? - Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Like - That. So technically I can't say it's
safer for a person to use it for longer than 41. - No, it's nearly months.
It's nearly four years. - I went through the mechanism of action of milk at the beginning of the show. Like, you know, antioxidant,
anti-inflammatory, you know, all of antitoxin. I can't see how any of the way
that it's working in the body would be detrimental. Used every day long term
in terms of liver function and even a lot of the
key herbal references. And if there's any naturopaths
from Australia listening, you'll know about the mills and bone phytotherapy reference book. It's like a bible to
herbalists in Australia. They even state no
restriction on long-term use. It's a bit of a gray area,
but I don't see an issue. I mean most people aren't gonna
give it every day without a break to their dog for like 10 years. - So the authority figures
who are putting out paper and publication are
saying it's safe to use. Yep. And it's just individuals
who feel that it's not, - Some of that's coming from
animal herbalists from back in the day when maybe we didn't
have the same knowledge that we have now about how
it is actually working Yep. In the body. And you know how those things just carry on over time. Mm-Hmm. ,
even if they were believed to be accurate then, and even
if we know they're not now, those things just persist. Yep. Particularly with the
internet being what it is. And even the veterinary textbook
said milk thistle should be used for at least eight
weeks, like every day for eight weeks to see
improvements in blood markers. So if you've gone to the vet,
your dog's got elevated liver enzymes and you're like, and you both like Right, we're gonna jump on some milk thistle. You need to give it for at
least eight weeks before you go and get retested to see any
changes in those blood markers. So in terms of safety, like
while we're talking about dosing and safety, in 2016, the
European Medicines Agency, they actually published
an assessment report just on milk thistle. And within that report they stated that there've been no cases
of overdose with milk csol. They said that data from clinical trials showed low toxicity. Mm-Hmm. . And
that the data was obtained from more than 4,000 patients. That treatment duration
ranging from one month up to 41 months, the frequency
of adverse events was reported as low. And even according to the
pharmacological studies included in the report, even they say
that milk, this is recognized as a safe herb since
taking it at therapeutic doses is not toxic. Right. Lots of benefits,
lots of positives around the, the safety and the dosing. But like everything, it's not without its
potential side effects, but they are stated as rare. So it's sort of the exception
rather than, than the rule. Mm-Hmm. . So
if someone were to react to milk thistle, things that
they might experience are mild gastrointestinal symptoms
such as dry mouth nausea, gastric irritation,
potentially diarrhea, headache. And there've been some
skin symptoms reported as well, like hives. But I imagine that's
someone who's probably got an allergy to the plant. Right. More so. Mm-Hmm. . - Which is possible.
- Yeah. So milk thistle is part of the plant family
called the ASEA family. That includes other plants
such as ragweed like daisies, marigolds, fum. So if someone's got an allergy
to sort of any of those type of plants, chances are they'll
also react to milk thistle 'cause it's part of the same family. Yep. Keep that in mind. - So if they do have the reactions, what would you recommend? Stop - . Right. Stop taking it and see
your doctor. Yep. Or your vet. Mm-Hmm. .
Because it's a bit harder to know if your dog's
got a marry gold reaction or not, you know, to that family. Mm-Hmm. there's
no safety data in kids, so don't give it to children. And probably not even puppies I'd say, although I'll have to look into
that now that I've said it. Mm. I didn't actually look
at the puppy research. Anything around children and pregnancy. There's like just a default caution. Yep. Because even with milk
thistle and pregnant and lactating women, it has
been given to those women because you know, they've been
experiencing some severe form of liver disease, but they
just happened to be pregnant so they gave the milk
this, there was no adverse consequences at all. But still, even though in that might have been half a
dozen studies on pregnant women showed it to be safe, you
still need to put a caution around pregnancy and lactation. Yeah. - You wouldn't want to be the catalyst for somebody having an issue
with their pregnancy. Well - Why would you risk it? Hmm. If you don't need to be
on it. Anything, just wait. Yeah. Just relates to any,
anything when you're pregnant. Just Yep. Be smart. But there was a 2019 paper on the safety and toxicity of milk thistle in animals. It stated that it has no major toxicity and they've done rat studies and dog studies unfortunately
with various doses of milk thistle getting to
like very, very high doses. And then when they did the
postmortem studies there was no evidence of toxicity. Mm-Hmm. , like I said, there are cautions if you're diabetic or if you've got a diabetic dog, it could potentially lower
blood glucose levels further. Mm-Hmm. .
Which can be problematic. We've already commented
on, you know, the potential for an allergic reaction if
you're already very sensitive to some plants in the
same family that milk. This all comes from if you've got existing gallstones, be really careful. 'cause if you're gonna start
triggering the flow of bile and you've got a gallstones
that are blocking the bile duct, that could trigger some issues in terms of drug interactions. Really, really good. So
safety reviews have concluded that the drug interaction risk
for milk thistle is minimal and generally not clinically relevant. There is a theoretical caution around its potential
impact on liver enzymes, but they had to give
what they call like supra therapeutic concentration. So just doses way above what
you would ever give in reality. Mm-Hmm. to sort of trigger that theoretical influence
on the liver enzymes. So yeah, generally say, but again, if you are on any
prescription medications, particularly any medications with narrow therapeutic
windows, talk to Yvette, talk to your doctor before
using anything in terms of how I use milk thistle, because I do get a lot of
emails from people wanting to use it or you know, being
told they should use it, but then they're not sure how to use it. Our dogs get milk thistle regularly. They don't get it every day. But that's more because I give them a lot of supplements every day
individualized to the dog. But at least a few times a week. And the other thing is, I know
our dogs are healthy pretty much every 12 months we'll get bloods done on all our dogs just to see
where things are sitting. So if I did see sort of a red flag or the beginning of
some elevation in liver enzymes, absolutely. They would be on it. Like that
dog would be on it every day. Yep. And the good thing too, particularly about the
canine ceuticals milk thistle is it tastes good. So compliance is great for
fussy dogs and fussy cats. - Cats can have it,
- Cats can have the milk thistle. It's - How do you get a cat
to take milk thistle? - Cats are so challenging. Yeah, - I know. That's what I was saying. - , I'm just recently
entering into the realm of giving cats supplements because a lot of the canine
ceuticals range is safe and suitable for cats and beneficial. Yep. The challenge is, - Is getting it into the cat,
- Getting 'em into it. The good thing, a lot of liquid
herbal tonics on the market, uh, in an alcohol base, but the milk thistle
isn't so really great. 'cause cats metabolize alcohol
differently to dogs. So. Right. It's a lot more toxic
to cats than dogs. Okay. But just so people know, if
you do buy a herbal tonic that is extracted with alcohol at the doses
given it is very safe for dogs. Mm-Hmm. . But you do have to be careful for cats. Right. And even the veterinary medicine, herbal medicine textbook
states that the top preference for a herbal remedy is the
ethanol extracted version for a variety of reasons,
which I won't go into today. But even they're saying it's
safe. Right. And beneficial. Okay. Because the can pharmaceuticals, pure milk, facilit tastes good. You don't need to use a lot of it. So it's really easy to add to food and they don't even know it's there. Yep. And it gives you super
flexibility with dosing. And - It's human grade. - And it's human grade.
It's the same liquid formula that if I had a human client in my clinic, they would get the same product. Yep. With a human label. Yep. . So, but think about it, if
you live near a busy road and you get in all that
exhaust particulate matter, if you regularly walk your
dogs in council managed areas, chances are they're
spraying herbicides to sort of manage those areas. If you live somewhere like
on an estate that used to be back in the day
farming land, oh my goodness. Like the chemicals that used to be used in agriculture way back persist for decades and decades and decades. - And tell people why
and how, you know that. - So my first bachelor's degree
was in agricultural science. Mm-Hmm. . And
then I went into regulatory affairs with a agrochemical company. Yep. So if you are living on X farmland and the severity will vary
based on whatever was grown. Mm-Hmm. there in terms of the nastiness of the
chemicals. But what's - Some of the highest,
just, I know we're off topic, but what's some of the highest, - Oh, I dunno, off the top of my head. Um, it's been too long for me to retain that, that information. . Yep. Um, maybe
another podcast if it comes up. But, and yeah, most people don't know, like you don't know if you buy a house and it's on an established
estate, like you don't know that the soil in your backyard, - What the contamination of the water, - What the contamination? And it's been, oh, I can't
remember where I heard it, but it's actually a
thing where if you plan to grow your own vegetable patch
like your own vegetables in the backyard, you 100% need
to be sending that soil off for testing for contaminants. Wow. Like heavy metals and
all of that sort of stuff, because that's gonna get
taken up into the food that you're growing and
you don't know what used to be put on the soil where you now live because you know, cities expand. Yeah, they do. Farmland used to be a lot closer and then Yep. The city just takes
over as it expands out. So that's a really good reason to have your dog on milk thistle. Mm-Hmm. . If
you've got new furniture, like any furniture, recent furniture, but particularly brand new
furniture, brand new carpets so bad for our dogs. Mm-Hmm. I'm paranoid about us if we ever have to paint a room. But if someone's like
painting a whole house at once and there's no ability
to escape that, you know, rather than doing one
room and closing it off to being in there Yep. With the windows open,
you know, that's not good. And as I mentioned earlier
with that study done by the environmental
working group, there's just so many things, like
even the drinking water, most people don't think about the drinking water their dogs get Mm-Hmm. our taps run
brown for a period of time. Yes. When they're first turned on.
So imagine if someone wasn't paying attention and that's probably just rust coming through the water. And if your dog's drinking that, - That's which is why we have triple filtered water in our house. Yeah. - But even, you know,
in the backyard taps, I always run the water for ages, but all the indoor bowls, um,
have filtered water in them. - Yep. Try filtered. - Yes it is. Mm-Hmm. .
If you're regularly flea and tick treating your
dog, I would recommend, and a lot of people do
this, like this is like a big email inquiry. I always just say, the day you give your flea and tick treatment Mm-Hmm. that day,
give twice daily dosing of milk thistle and do that
for, I usually say three or four days are up to
a week for that dog. Right. Just to support
their liver in processing that chemical burden that
we are putting on them. And in them, if you're
feeding kibble every day, you don't have to give
milk thele every day. But you might think about
somehow incorporating it into their regime. Oh, did I say this before? The
good thing about particularly a liquid version is, let's say you wanna use milk thistle just for prevention and general health. You might give the lower end
of the dosing range once a day. Mm-Hmm. But if you've got concerns or you know your dog's
been exposed to something or you know your dog's
got a particular disease, you might give the higher end of the dosing regime twice a day. Mm-Hmm. So you've got that
flexibility to chop and change. Some people do it a
month in spring as sort of a spring detox for the dog. Some people do a week, a month. So you can see there's
no hard and fast rules. It depends on you, it depends on your dog, it depends on your environment. - I just wanna cut in
there and quickly say, I can't actually say who they are, but I can say a government agency that you and I have both been working with, they're completely innovative and transformative in now starting to look into properly feeding their dogs, looking at their nutrition
panel, making sure that what they're actually doing
to maintain the working capability of the dog and
the longevity of health and so forth has been run by you. Mm-Hmm. .
And a lot of your programs and your supplements, they're now actually starting
to shift their dogs too. Some of the people have personally
got their own dogs on it, which is why they want to come and speak to what I wanted
to say around that was, 'cause I know some of them will listen to this is huge admiration and just amazing that we are
starting to see agency starting to take a shift where it's
not just cut a bag open, put the bag in there and
you know, you run dogs that are like Olympic
athletes on something that's just not sustainable
from a long-term. And then wondering why you're getting reduction in the capability of the dog after a period of time. Like I said at the start, it's innovative. I'm so proud of them. I can't wait to see what they start doing with their new dogs, their new puppies, their
new breeds coming through. It's absolutely fantastic. - Yeah, it is. And you're right. Like those working dogs
are such an asset. Oh. - But it's people's pets too. Like it, there's millions and millions and millions of dogs and cats. There's just so much
fast food given to them. And you know, people
are starting to wake up. They're starting to asking questions. Even just the small amount of
people who are reaching out to you and they're changing their diets and they're supplementing their pets. It's incredible. It's encouraging. We're starting to see a movement. We're starting to see pets
living their best life nutritionally at least. And that's fantastic. It's
gonna be great for trainers, it's gonna be great for
people who own pets. It's gonna be great for general
communities who don't have to endure poor performances
of especially dogs that are out there in the public realm. Mm-Hmm. All of these things
have a net positive impact. It's like a spider web effect. Everybody gets attached to this and it has a net positive
effect, which is just fantastic. - Yeah, absolutely. I guess we can wrap it up there, but I just wanna stress
like absolutely everything that we consume, everything
that goes into the body Mm. Gets processed by the liver. Yep. To me, the liver is the heart of the body in terms of health. Yes. So we need to look after our livers. We need to look after our dog's. Livers milk thistle is part
of that liver care regime. So if you do have any questions about how you might use milk
thistle for your dog, please email us at
info@canineceuticals.com au. We've got some good
resources on the website. That's canine ceuticals.com
au under the resources tab where you can learn more about
lots of different things. That's it for today's
episode on Milk Thistle. I hope you learn something new and you're as excited about
the milk thistle herb as I am. Sounds fantastic. I think I
need to be on it. I'm on it. I know you are. I should
give it to you too. So thank you for listening everyone, and I will catch you next time. Bye everyone. Bye.