Ron Macklin: Episode 89, lead the cultural
transformation by embracing change. Welcome to the story in your head. I'm Ron Macklin. And today, Deb and I explore what it means
when a company's culture changes, how it can affect employees experiences and the
tangible implications of cultural changes. Deb, you wanted to talk about
when the culture's changed. What does that mean? The culture's changed. What does that mean to you? Before we get into like your
experiences and my experiences. What does it mean when
a culture is changed? Deb Dendy: Yeah. Thanks, Ron. How I noticed it is first that people
have a story that something's different, obviously changed that and in, in
the way it's been told to me, like I've talked to several people about
different companies and the size of their companies and when their company
was growing, the culture changed. And so they had a story that they
couldn't have fun at work anymore. Where everything was all work, no play. Ron Macklin: When a culture change, that
means that they're not having fun at work? Could it be that they weren't having
fun and now they are having fun? But there's something about fun in here. Like what, what, help
me out with that one. Like what, what does it mean
when the culture has changed? Deb Dendy: Yeah, that's great. I'm trying to put it into simple words
other than what I notice in people. That when the culture changes, Um,
I'm having a hard time with it. I mean, and this is, this is exactly
why I want to talk about it because when people are having this story, Ron Macklin: Culture is not real. Like it's like, you can't
like pick up a bucket. I'm going to go get a bucket
of, no, give me a quart. I'll take two quarts. I don't want a whole gallon. That's one, two quarts of culture. Bring it over here. Right? So it's not real. It's not tangible. And it doesn't change. Like it doesn't like, That milk was, used
to be petroleum and now it's milk, right? That's changing of the,
it's not that, right? A culture is a name we give to the stories
people have about the organization, about what it is to be there, right? And it could be your mood about the
group, but then it could be your philosophy, like how you see what's a
good life and all that stuff, right? And then you keep all the people's
stories together and it becomes a culture. And everybody gets to contribute
to that culture, whether they choose to or not, they're still
contributing to that culture. And that's like how people
notice the organization. Like it could be a fun culture. It could be a giving growth culture. It can be an authentic culture. It could be a draconian culture. I mean, like there's a lot of different
names you can put on those cultures. So it's a stories we make up about
where we're at and when the culture's changed, that means something has
changed about the environment and people make up a different story from that. Right. And my noticing is. Some people make up a story like, I like
the way it used to be longing for the past culture and other ones are, this is
better than what it used to be, right? This is really good. Right. And you can have all of that inside
the same group of people, right? People go like, Oh no,
I love the way it was. No, this is much better. All at the same time. All of these kind of come
together for the culture. So then, when we say culture, we're
talking about a story people have about a group, an organization, right? So, what is it that, and let's go on
to some situations you've worked on. What is it about those situations
that changed that people say the culture is different? Deb Dendy: So you, you just really
triggered me with the, and thank you for that with, because the other
thing that they say is, I don't, I don't even know everybody anymore. Okay. So these are two companies that
like scaled quickly, right? So in one case, you know,
started very, very small. And of course you knew everybody, you
knew everybody's, Spouse, you knew their kids, you, you know, you would
vacation together and things like that. And then as we started growing,
bringing more and more people, he'll say, I don't even, I don't
even know the other people anymore. And, and not as if they
couldn't have known them, right. Right. They could have connected with the new
people coming in, but in some cases, they didn't feel comfortable to do that. They liked it the way it was Ron Macklin: and sometimes they don't like
it the way it was until it disappears. And then they look back and
go, that was better than this. So I liked that before now, but when
they were in that moment, they were going like, I don't like this place. Right. And then they go, no, but I want it like
it was, but you didn't like it back then. Yeah. But it's better than it is now. All right. Okay. Got it. So when you're working with the,
the space of, of people saying the culture is different, Like,
do they hold it, that they get to participate in creating the culture? Deb Dendy: Well, that's one of the
reasons I wanted to talk about this because That is not what they're noticing. It is like, it's the bucket,
it's the bucket of culture. That culture changed over there. I didn't have anything to do with it. It wasn't my story about it. Something changed outside of me. Ron Macklin: So when the situation
changed and now they have an option, actually they have many options, what
are some of those options people have? When, let's say they got, you got
acquired by a bigger company, you, you've, you've doubled the size of the
people in the stat in the building, got a new CEO, you got sold to somebody else. All these things can happen inside there. What are their options? Fundamentally, did I try to
stick, yeah, fundamentally, Deb Dendy: and I use the word
assimilate, it's, it sounds terrible. The way I would think about it is. Go meet people. Ron Macklin: Go meet people. So that's an option. They can go meet people. That's one option. Go meet people. Like what people? Just people in general or go meet what? Deb Dendy: Go connect with others that
you may be working with or maybe not. See what they're about. What do they care about? Ron Macklin: So then, how
do you go about doing that? Because that could be scary. These are new people. Deb Dendy: Well, especially if people
are coming into the same building, it makes it somewhat easier to walk
around and say hello, invite someone new out to lunch, but just care. Ron Macklin: So there's
the meet new people. That's one option. What are the other options? Turtle up. Turtle up? What is it? What does that mean, turtle up? Deb Dendy: Get your head pulled into
your shell and all your legs and everything pulled into your shell. It's like, I'm not going to meet anybody. I'm not. Nope. I want it to be exactly the way it is. And I'm just going to do
exactly how I've always done it. Ron Macklin: To me, turtle up is
protecting you as you are right now. Deb Dendy: Yeah, Ron Macklin: no, no, no, no risk, no
danger, no, nothing protect what you are. Okay. Got it. Turtle up, go meet people. What else you got? Deb Dendy: I mean, to me,
it comes down to cares. Find out what the company cares about. Find out about what the
new CEO cares about. Ron Macklin: How is that different
than connecting or meeting people? Deb Dendy: I guess it's toward a different
purpose, like meeting people could just be, Hey, do you have kids like, Hey, are
you, you know, what's your life about? Have any hobbies that's like on
the surface level, but then about being help to each other, like
being real help to each other. Ron Macklin: Remember, these are
not like all good things or bad things, but what are things people. And do in this situation. Deb Dendy: Yeah. I mean, help others notice, notice
that others, if people have gaps, if you have a gap, if I have a gap asking
for help, allowing someone to help me. Ron Macklin: So I'm going
to throw it to others. Cause I'm just going
to put them in a space. You can quit. Deb Dendy: Yeah. Ron Macklin: You can, you
can leave the company. You can go. This is not where I want
to be anymore and quit. You can, what do you call it? Become political as in try to
undercut and under mine of the, whoever the new people are. Like these are real things people do. Like they go, I don't like the way it is. So I'm going to sabotage people and
I'm going to talk bad about them. And, and maybe not in public,
but behind people's backs. And then I'm not going to go out and
meet anybody, but I'm going to be more, let's say caustic to the organization. Until these people go away. Yeah. So these, these are like,
we've seen all these. We've seen all of these in, in different
places and these are all the options. And the, the responsibility of
culture is for all the people. And if you don't know what all your
options are, you don't get to choose. You can like, you show up in a
world and you get stuck in one. I go, no, you could
actually go meet people. Well, I thought it was just,
we wanted to sabotage them. Yeah. Right. That's what we wanted to do. I got, I think that's
what everybody's done. No, no. You got, get your options and there's
five or six options you can lay them out and figure out what, how
it is you want to get along, what do you want to do in the world. Right. And, and you can like in the go meet
people, you can go meet people like aggressively and then, no, I mean it
really like, Oh, Hey, how you doing? Good. Great. All this other stuff. People going like, don't trust that one. Right. Or you could go and at a slower pace and. And, and, and meet people. And there's lots of different strategies
you can use on how you're going to create your new culture as a group
for yourself and for the others. And what are you going to,
like, what are your options? And then what do you choose? Like you had three options, maybe two
with a little extra on one, right? So you had three, but there
are many options you can have. And if you don't lay out all those
options and figure out which one you want to be, You can be stuck in one,
like, this is a part of when you got new changes, new opportunities, right? There's also new responsibilities
and that is for creating who you are in that culture. Deb Dendy: Yeah. So I'm, I'm sitting here in this maybe
naive, maybe Midwest, nice attitude that like, why would you ever choose wanting
to go behind someone's back wanting to like, why would you choose that? Ron Macklin: Why would you choose that? Why would you choose that? Deb Dendy: I guess if you felt threatened. If you're, if you felt like
someone was doing that to you, Ron Macklin: my experiences,
normally when people do that, it's because they are afraid and they
don't know they have an option. Like they're scared and this is the
only place that they know to go. They don't go like you
could go become friends. They're not going to be my friends, right? You could turtle up. Oh, no, no, no, no. They'll run right over me. I've seen turtles on the road. They're like a big stain about, you know,
three and a half feet across, right? I'm not going to do that. Well, you could, you could find
out what the organization's about. They're just waiting to fire me. So all of those means that's the story
that they have created in their head about this space and the difference
between that and the one who says, I'd like to get to know more people and
find out what's going on over here. And how do I fit into this culture? The only difference is the story in
their head and the responsibility that they hold that I get to choose
whether I want to stay or not. And there's a lot of,
a lot of, what is it? The first time I heard that was,
was the golden handcuffs, right? Like, so there's, you make a lot
of money, so you want to stay. So then you can't leave because
all this money you're making. And then we called them copper
handcuffs because, well, there's really not that much money. So, but, but you got to leave. And now I think it's just a story in
your head that you have handcuffs. You can't leave. And if you don't feel
you can leave, right? Because that's not an option for
you, but you can always leave. You can always leave the organization
and go find something else. I have, you have, we all have, we've left
organizations and went out and with very successful finding someplace else to go. Yet, if we feel we have a story we
can't, then we start to look for how do we do what we want to do here. Deb Dendy: Ah, so there's, there's the
being stuck and I'm noticing, I'm noticing because I've, I've seen it, right? People have a story that,
you know, I'm too old. I'm too old to change jobs. Like I'm only like two
years away from retirement. I'll just, I put up with
anything for two years. Heard that like, yeah, I, I got a role
in a small company that it's not a, like a, it, I, it's, I'm not classically
trained in that and who, who in another company is gonna give me a chance. To do that when I don't, it's like,
I didn't go to school for that. I could be a story. Ron Macklin: Yep. That's a good story. I mean, a good as in it's
believable to yourself. Good. Good. Doesn't mean it works out. It just means you look at it and go, yeah,
I believe that it's believable to you. Doesn't always take care of you
or take care of the organization. Deb Dendy: Yeah, I, I can say
this story was in a big meeting with a big customer one time. And they were having to make a decision
that was a hard decision on technology. And the one gentleman said,
I am 16 months, four days and two hours away from retirement. Why would I take this risk
to pick your solution? And I went, that's his story. Is that he's counting it down
by the way, he, he actually got fired because they didn't. I wonder why because he was retired in
place, but, but again, these stories that we tell ourselves that are
believable to ourselves to get us stuck. And then if we believe those stories. And we're stuck, then it can look like
that culture is that bucket over there because I have no, I, I'm stuck in it. There's nothing I can do. I'm a, like, I'm a victim of it. Ron Macklin: I accept the story of
the person who knew how many days, months and hours before he was. Or she was going to be retired. His culture was, I'm
not responsible anymore. Right? And so then, therefore, his
culture was, I'm not responsible. And it probably showed up in many places
in his, in his world because he had that. And you can have the story that I'm
not responsible when you're 25, or when you're 65, or when you're 85. When you lose the story of I'm
responsible for whatever it is you want to be responsible for. You're no longer
contributing to the culture. You're actually creating it in
a detracting from what would be, we would call a healthy culture. So what is the story that you have about
the responsibility for setting it up? And I, I love the word responsibility
because it perturbs bejeebies out of me. Right. Because you always go like,
you're responsible for that. And that's like blame. And we got to pull blame
and responsibility part. I can be responsible for something
and it doesn't mean I'm blaming myself if I don't get it done. I can still just be
responsible for doing it. And when you hold you're responsible
for your future, you can say, well, I'm responsible for our future. There's been a dramatic
change in this company. This is no longer where I want
to work, I'm going to resign, that's being responsible. You could say, I will be here
for six months and then I will resign or I'll leave, right? Or you can say, I need to know more
about this company and the people who are running it and like the space that I'm
in before I actually get in and say, yes, I'm committed to stay in this company. And then you, and you go, so then
you got to go meet people, you got to go talk to them, you got
to find out what they're up to. And then you can make an assessment
where you stay or where do you go, right? But that's being responsible. For your culture and
everything else around you. Now imagine an organization
that everybody's doing that. Like I'm being responsible. I'm responsible for when I show up,
I'm being responsible for the culture I create, the way I treat people, the
way other people treat me and what I've observed, it takes a minimum amount
of people that like, like I say, a minimum, there's a certain number and
it can be bigger than this, but you've got to have a certain number of people
to create a very positive culture. Like if it's four people,
you got to have two. Right. Or if it's like 20 people, you
got to have like five, right. And they'll create a
really amazing culture. And one person can destroy it. One person can destroy the culture
can, can adversely affect the culture to the place where you
go, like, we, we, we get it. You don't want to be here
and you don't want to quit. You're too scared to quit. And, and, and it can
really destroy the culture. Like one negative, what is it? One bad grape can make a bad batch of
wine and it, it really is like the, it is the, the, the, I see, I've seen it. So when everybody's responsible
for that, you don't have to get everybody to go, but you have to have
a minimum amount of people to make it all, make your culture create. And if you can ever get to the place where
you're actually talking about the culture, there's actually a space where people go,
well, how does this affect our culture? What would we create with that culture? Where it comes apart of the dialogue. Like we want it to be a fun place to work. What does that mean? Okay, let's, let's work
on, run some experiments. We want to be a place where we care
about people, we care about education, we create all this space, right? If you're having those
regular conversations. Over time, you're creating your culture
and then it'll become a moment when you go, it's, it's time for us to write
our stand, to create from ourself. Not like go copy some from someplace
else, but create our stand. This is what we will do, what we
won't do and what we might do in a document and put it on a wall. And that's a part of creating. Culture, because people can
begin to see what the culture is without actually waiting for them
to interact with somebody else. Now you're creating this culture. Now, if you're into a new
organization, let's say you have your group's been bought or your
group bought somebody in that space. The first thing I would encourage
everyone to do is to go. What am I willing to be responsible for? What do I want to shape? How do I want to shape this organization? I want to be responsible for shaping
this organization or no, I don't. And if you don't, okay. Right. Fantastic. You'll be comfortable
and great someplace else. But if you want to be a part
of creating a culture, right. Then like reach out to people and
talk all those tactics you're saying about, but there's a story in your
head is like, do I want to be here? Do I want to be responsible
for this new organization? A responsible is not a bad word. Deb Dendy: Right. You're, you're triggering me to
think about the coworker, the employee that so great, right? So great before an acquisition. And then after an acquisition,
I'm going to use choice, right? They chose not to be responsible. And that great, awesome
employee turned toxic. Like, and when you have so many
stories about how great an employee is, it's, it's, it's sometimes
easy to overlook if they're having a negative impact on the culture. And so sometimes you let them stay. And, and, you know, you just maybe
think about that, that one bad apple. There's also a responsibility
in building the culture the way you want to, to, to produce. To be the stand of the company
together and to be able to notice when it's not working for people. Ron Macklin: Are you looking to
strengthen your relationships, whether personally or professionally? You want to learn how to build authentic
connections faster, or perhaps you're looking to beat employee burnout
through the power of connection. My name is Ron Macklin, founder
of Macklin Connection, and in our workshops, we teach you the fundamentals
of how to do exactly that and more. To learn more of the power
of your relationships, visit us at MacklinConnection. com One of the things I noticed,
Deb, is that these are, these can be uncomfortable conversations. Like, you know, we don't, we don't
like, Oh, we got a new change coming on. And we go, and you're all like,
Oh, it's going to be great. Everybody's going to have fun. It's going to be great. Versus the conversation of, Well, this
is the new change we're going into. Do you want to be a part of it? Like really like honest conversation. This, the culture is
going to be different. Do you want to be a part of it? If you don't want to be a
part of it, that's cool. Let's figure out how to find you, where
you want to go and encourage people to leave who don't want to be there. Say, I'll give you a good reference. I mean, if they, if they hang out and turn
sour, right, we're not going to be able to give a good reference because they're,
they're not a good employee anymore. But if they leave, when they're
up on top, then you go, no, no, this is a great person. I mean, we're, we're, we're moving
into a new culture, new space. It wouldn't gonna fit with them. They want a smaller group, but they want
a closer group, whatever the story is. Right. And you can tell them a good,
a good story about, they were fantastic while we had them. Sorry to see him go. We'd love to have him back if he wanted
to, but he doesn't want to be here. Okay. Being open. That's like being authentic, being
open, being honest about whether people want to be a part of your culture. And you don't want anybody inside
your business or any, you know, like, we don't even want anybody
in our program doesn't want to Deb Dendy: be there. Well, but I'm also noticing Ron, the
care for it's one, it's one thing to say, well, that person just doesn't
fit in or that person has, you know, created themselves to be this way. They don't fit in, but it's another
thing to care about them and the choices that they're making and help
them find the place they want to be. And I don't know, like, I haven't seen
that done really well in the past to help people because I mean, a lot of times
you're competing for employees, right? You're competing. And I, I can see a
story of, Oh, we got it. We got to keep this person
because we're like, we're in competition for employees in a way. It's not respectful. It's, it's not treating them with dignity
when you're keeping them somewhere. That they don't want to be Ron Macklin: when you're in conversation
with somebody about whether they want to work here or not, there is
this conversation that's called. I'm in a conversation with this person. I really want to be here or not. And then there's everybody else in the
business that's watching everything that you do with this person. So you're having a conversation for that
person and everybody else in the because what will bring people to the business? More than your recruiting and
Indeed and LinkedIn is how people in your business feel valued, right? So if somebody comes into the office,
you finally get them to come in the door and they'll walk around and they
go meet a couple people that work there and they go, why do you work here? Cause I love this place. I take care of people. And you're going to have people who are
like, Whoa, I've never heard that before. You said that out loud just to
me, like, Oh, look, it's that way. This is the most unusual
place I've ever worked. Right. So when you are in this world of
taking care of that person, you're also taking care of everybody in the team. And one of the things that I never
say, and I never share anything about why anybody left the company. I don't talk about what happened. I don't talk about any of that stuff. And everybody always knows, right? Is, uh, the old saying on the farm was. You slide into the ditch news,
we'll make it home before you do gossip works that way. And so how you take care of that person
will create how everybody else holds the company, and this is a part of your
culture, how you take care of that person was creating a culture for that space. I had investigated for firing
more people in my organization than the rest of Siemens U. S. combined and won best place to work
in Houston, Texas, which is a voting of confidence by the employees, same
year, because I let people go off and do what they wanted to do, but
they didn't have the courage for it. They didn't want to be here, but
they didn't know how to quit. And we helped them find that way. And that's my standard. We do everything we can. We put them on a performance
improvement plan for a chance for them to improve their performance. Right. Not first step to getting fired. It's a different story, right? And how do we help the
people want to be here? And if they don't want to be here
and they don't want to quit, and some of them actually did quit, they
go, I don't want to be here anymore. This is not where I want to be. Cool. Great. What do you need? Good reference. I'll, we'll get you one. I haven't called me. And some of them, we've let it let go. And later on, they come back and
say, thank you for letting me go. I love this over here. Much better. Cool. That is not just taking care of
that person, it's taking care of everybody else in the business. Deb Dendy: Uh huh. Ron Macklin: So you're creating
culture when you do that. Probably one of the most powerful times
to create a culture is when a leader lets somebody go and how they do it,
uh, emotional, it's not vindictive, it's not, I don't like that person. Everybody sees that the person
had a performance problem. And they understand it. And they go, yeah, that was really cool. That's great. Deb Dendy: Well, thank you, Ron. Ron Macklin: You're very welcome. And so the question like for the, for the
organization, for the people out there who are listening to this podcast, what do
you do to create culture where you're at? What do you, what do you do to
encourage others to create culture? How do you take care of each other? Deb Dendy: And are you responsible for it? Ron Macklin: Are you responsible? Are you being responsible? And do you tie responsibility
and blame together? Right? Like, like they're the same thing. Where do you go? No, this is blame. This is responsibility. I'm responsible for causing something
to happen versus I'm at fault. Deb Dendy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ron. Thanks for our conversation today. Ron Macklin: Thank you. Great topic. Deb. Thanks. Deb Dendy: Thanks for
listening to the podcast today. At Madeline Connection, we believe
making authentic connections with others can literally change your world. We invite you to share this podcast
with one person that you care about. Maybe it's someone you haven't spoken
with in a really long time and you'd love to reconnect, or maybe it's the first
person that popped into your head when you listened to this podcast because you
thought it would be perfect for them. Thanks again for listening,
and we'll see you next time.