This is Scott Becker with the Becker's Healthcare podcast. We're thrilled today to be joined by a leader from Advocate Health. Advocate Health is one of the largest health systems in the country now. I I I think between all its different regions and the different combinations it's done, it's up to 30 to $40,000,000,000 system. But but far more than that, it's one of the most compassionately led systems in the country and a tremendous health care enterprise. We're joined today by the chief strategy officer, someone who's a cardiologist and engineer by background, doctor Shoaib Sitafulala. And we're gonna talk to doctor Sitafulala today about this transitions in professional life, and we'll use health care as the as the core starting off point of moving from clinical medicine to more of a leadership role in in a lot more. Shoa, can I ask you to take a second to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your career and your career with Advocate? Yeah. No. Thank you, Scott, for for having me on and the opportunity to to talk to your audience. So, as you said, I'm the chief strategy officer for Advocate Health. We are, I think by most reasonable standards, you know, in the top 5 largest health systems in the country. And as as you mentioned, I'm a cardiologist by background, and, you know, I've had the good fortune of of being with the organization actually since I graduated medical school. I I started off as a as an intern and a resident at, Advocate Lutheran General Hospital in the north, in the north suburbs of Chicago where, you know, I I have the opportunity to to, you know, train in a in a very busy and and clinically active environment, but also kind of observe some amazing leaders in the field. And kind of in the process of doing that, kind of, had the chance to to go up kind of step by step in the leadership arena from, you know, being a a chief cardiology fellow in my final year of training to being a medical director of a of a of a clinical unit to being a chief medical officer for one of our hospitals in Advocate Health Care, and eventually becoming chief strategy officer for AdvoDura, and then eventually Advocate Health Care, the the combined entity that, you were just referring to. So simply a remarkable, remarkable career. And I'll ask you the tough question. I'm gonna ask you a very tough question. You have to let me know, Shoaib, if you're ready for that. Sure. Sure. Sure. So so here is a tough question. My primary care physician for literally my entire adult life is an advocate health care physician who practices out of the Lutheran General area. Okay. And so the tough the the tough question is, you know, and there there's there's really only one right answer to this, Joab, just so you know. He he's someone who grew up with me. He's been my primary care doctor for the last 30 years. I love him to death. Is Danny Lazar a good doctor or a bad doctor? And you know doctor Lazar. He's one of the best. He's definitely one of the best. I I we we take care. I've I've had the pleasure of taking care of a lot of patients with him. Well well, thank you. I'm glad to hear that. So so you had recently authored a piece about your physicians, really, about going from bedside to boardroom, 3 things physicians should know and think about. Tell us a little bit about some of those thoughts and the motivation to put pen to paper. Talk to us a little bit about that article and your thoughts. Yeah. You know, what's interesting is, particularly as I made the role of the chief strategy officer and and starting when I was a chief medical officer of Atria Good Shepherd Hospital, I I started, you know, around it usually happens starting in December and and extended into into the end of January. I would get this, kind of predictable, flow of emails, text messages, LinkedIn messages, just of of a number of other physicians, you know, asking for advice. You know, hey. I I see that you you do you do more than than see patients now. I wanna do something in that in that realm. And, inevitably, you know, it it kind of led to a series of conversations. And I was as I was thinking back, I started getting that that same set of emails, you know, this December. I started realizing I I'm kinda saying the same thing over and over again to to a lot of my colleagues, you know, some, you know, tweaks and modifications along the way. But, and so I just decided. I was like, let me just put some advice down. And, it kinda took off, when I posted it on LinkedIn. But, you know, I had just kind of 3 basic concepts that that that that you need to keep in mind when you when you're making this jump. And and talk about what those concepts are. What are some of those core concepts? Yeah. So so I think the first thing I tell people is, you know, don't run away from clinical medicine. You know, run towards a bigger goal. You know, I I think, that's good advice in general. Like, don't run away from stuff. Run towards things. It's advice I give my kids. But, the basic issue is, you know, if you're if you're looking towards, like, administrative roles, you know, as somehow an escape from, you know, the frustration that you may have in your in your in your clinical role, you know, like, be it, you know, call schedule or, you know, having to do, you know, paperwork or prior authorization forms and stuff like that. Don't don't feel like it's it's somehow better in the administrative world. I mean, you you know, every job we do has a set of duties and tests that, you know, kinda come with the territory. And so don't feel like you're, you know, you're trading 1 you know, I you know, I essentially traded my weekend calls for weekend morning meetings. You know, it it's it's not it's not as if, you know, the work goes away. It's different work, you know, but but but and and sometimes it's, you know, it it it it creates different levels of satisfaction and and different levels and has its own levels of frustration. But don't look at clinical, as as as an administrative role as a way to escape your frustrations. Look at it as a way to really expand and really double down on your on your passions. Right? And one of the things I say is, you know, like, you know, burnout might push you out of clinical medicine or about at the clinic, but passion will sustain you in that conference room. And it's really you're you're trying to what you're really going for when you make that leap towards a bigger goal is is to, you know, is to find ways to to evolve your impact, to have a bigger impact. I used to see, you know, 20, 30 patients a day in the clinic. I get to make decisions now that get to impact 20, 30000 patients, you know. So it's that's that's the first step. But but this this point you make is so important though because so many people who've seen this in big professional organizations, they think that getting out of the line job into the department leadership job or into the different leadership job will somehow be easier or they're running away from the clinical line job and it and it it imports a career. Most people are ready to do a little bit something else or some sort of pivot, you know, if you do knees for 40 years by the time you're if that's all you do for 40 years is repair your knees, most people are gonna be burnt out. So those pivots are very important, but you gotta take on the new role with that same energy and excitement and enthusiasm you had for the earlier role. If you're doing it as an escape hatch, it's a disaster. It moves in than other professionals organizations so often. They think your point is so well taken. Let me pass it back to you for for point 2 there. Yeah. Yeah. And and I'll I'll just put a little extra point on that, which is, for me, it's, like, one of the reasons why I still see patients in in the office because you you kinda get for me, I get the best of both worlds. And I and I encourage people, physicians who are making the administrative leap, like, find a way to still practice because you'll find that you're a better leader in your organization if you're still seeing patients. You you're gonna use those clinical interactions as inspiration, as a source of new ideas. And I think it you know, when when you wanna propose change, you know, you're gonna have more, like, a street cred if if you're still seeing patients. And you under and you understand it better. You understand everything better too if you still see patients too. So you really understand how this workflow works, how this computer, this technology works, whatever it is. Yeah. If you're not actually touching it, it it's it's a different view of it than actually touching it. Absolutely. But that really kinda leads into the second point, which is, you know, seek opportunities, not titles. Then this is the, I think, the the interesting thing because, particularly when I when I when I mentor kind of early career physicians or mid career physicians, there's this desire of, like, well, if I do this, you know, I wanna be chief this or repeat that. You know? And and what I tell people is, like, your leap to administrative work or leadership can't start with a request for a title because you don't you actually don't know what title you want yet. The you know, what you need to really look for is, a sandbox to play in. Right? You you need you need a project or, an initiative that you get to really exercise, your leadership skills and be it, you know, building coalitions, being trying to figure out how to get you know, turn an idea into a concept and then a concept into a operational initiative. You know? And you gotta take some bumps along the way. I I always tell people, and I still say, I I screw things up before I get them right, and you you need to find you need to find a safe spot to screw things up in. So, you you know, you learn, you know, how how to lead. And and then from there, you're really gonna understand, like, what is the impact you wanna make? Do you wanna you know, there are many ways for physicians to lead. There could be quality, you know, and you could play a role in the quality safety kind of chief medical officer arena. It could be, you know, in the population health space, where you're starting to, take that quality safety work and and and translate it more into, into contracting and and and and and, you know, more payer relationships. You could do, you know, what I ended up doing, which is strategy, which you you got to kinda do a little bit of of it all of it and kinda build more on transformation and and kind of big picture, moves that that an organization makes. So, you know, find the sandbox. Find the sandbox, the title will come easily. But but I think that point is so important. We're having that discussion with going over adult children currently. If you get in the right learning environment, the right growth environment, ultimately, the money and titles will come. And you might not know what those what that money and titles will be. But if you get yourself thriving and learning and growing, the rewards from that, at least the material awards will come, but far more important that you're striving and growing and learning, and and you're just better positioned for everything, and you're enjoying what you do as well. So I I I I love that advice. So we we've been through 2 of them now, 2 pieces of core advice from your article. Tell us the 3rd. Yeah. You know, the third is is the this is probably the hardest thing for physicians to, you know, get their head around when when when they when they get into their their role eventually, which is and this is the thing I struggle with the most, which is, you know, there you know, you have to be willing to trade that instant grab it gratification for the long term impact. You know, the the there is something so tangible about being a physician taking care of, you know so, you know, for me, I'm a cardiologist. Somebody comes in. They have chest pain. They have, you know, palpitations. I figure out a diagnosis, treatment. And, usually, you know, within that same clinical encounter or shortly thereafter, they're feeling better. That's not the way, you know, health care leadership works. There is it it's really about the the long game. You know, you're working on projects and initiatives that could take months. They could take years. And, that that dopamine rush that I think physicians, whether they realize it or not get when they take care of a, of a patient, you're kinda having to readjust that, that expectation game. And that is so important too. And many physicians are very used to gratitude because they went to med school, they went to residency, they went to fellowship. And at the same time, they're getting graded all the way through and and getting marks and getting, you know, ups and downs. So they get that dopamine periodically. When you're looking at working in longer term project environments, it's it's often that that real challenge when you move from a role where you're seeing this many patients a day, doing this many hours, doing this many this, bringing this many clients, whatever it is, to a more amorphous way of judging yourself, that can be hard for people. Can't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, it it can create, you know, the good thing about it is because, physicians are so driven by outcomes and results. It's just the nature of clinical medicine. Yeah. You know, you're, I think it it creates a healthy level of impatience when you're doing administrative leadership. Right? It it's it's it's the fact that you are gonna when you do create a project, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna set you're gonna understand and and hopefully have a desire to set metrics of success very early. And, you know, you're gonna you're gonna move fast. And and so, I I think that's important, and that's a it's kind of a an an advantage we have. But at the same time, we need to, kind of set our expectations accordingly because there are certain decisions that are very much dependent on, you know, cycles that that that we don't have, you know, the contracting cycles with the payer or, you know, budgetary cycles and stuff like that. So you you just have to kind of set your clock speed, relative to that, but still move with with urgency and and intention. Shubh, what an amazing career and leadership perspective. And what a fascinating role. Did you ever think in your life you'd be treat chief strategy officer of a $30,000,000,000 institution? Did you ever see that as part of your, you know I mean, that wasn't part of your original plan, was it? Oh, not at all. Not at all. I I I mean, it's it's really I think it's kind of the result of of of, like, actually point 2, you know, which is looking for that sandbox. You know? Like, I I don't know what it is. I I knew I always knew I wanted to find ways to to to leverage and increase my impact. And I I found a sandbox that allowed me to play in multiple verticals in the organization from the clinical side to the business development side to, you know, technology. And, you know, it it one thing kinda led to another and, you know, it really took somebody else to say that, look, you know, you don't you don't fit in a particular box. I think you'd fit in the chief strategy role. And so, I had I was very fortunate to have some good mentors along the way that that saw something in me that I didn't. And, but it wouldn't have happened had I preordained myself with the title. Right. I mean, you were trying to grow and thrive and put yourself in the right spot to grow and thrive. And the opportunities then came from there versus trying to direct one of your path to the opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, you know, I think everybody has their own path, you know, and it's you know, I don't expect, you know, you mentioned, you know, the the the that whole, you know, med school to residency to fellowship. I think we're as physicians, we're very used to a kind of a linear graduated path. And when you get into leadership, it's it can be exponential. It can be it it takes the form of very different curves. And, you know, just having awareness of that and knowing that they're you're you're gonna take different leaps, along different points in your career, and you need to see the opportunity and and, just be willing to learn. Really, you know, if you seek the opportunity to to learn more, you know, lots of amazing things can happen. Thank you very, very much. Doctor Shahab Sattafawawa, I wanna thank you so much for joining us today on the Becker's HealthCare podcast. What a pleasure to visit with you and hear more from you, and I appreciate the comfort in doctor Lazar as my internist, primary care physician. Wonderful. I'd say that obviously joking. One of the best people I know. We're only as good as they come. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very, very much. Appreciate the time.